Montgomery Canal Access

[Prof]

As we intend to revisit Llanllogen again this summer, I thought it would be good to finally go down the locks at Frankton and have a couple of days on the connected section of the Montgomery Canal. As we've passed  over the years, I have seen the locks progress from dereliction, to a fully restored, working flight, and thought how nice it would be to go down them and explore at last. I knew there used to be a system of booking for a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the afternoon, but on enquiring I find that now the booking restriction is 12:00 until 14:00 everyday! This would mean adding a minimum of3 days to our trip, instead of the 2 I had anticipated! Time I would love to spend there but unfortunately cannot afford.
Why oh why do CaRT seem to be determined to put people off using the Montgomery, when so much time and effort has been spent on it's restoration?! Surly boats arriving at 9:00 are no more likely to disturb the newts than at 12:00? But the idea of making life convenient for boaters seems to be alien to CaRT!!
As someone who volunteers myself, I am aware that it would cost very little more to man the locks morning AND afternoon than just at lunchtime, if manning is indeed necessary! and it would be so much more convenient for boaters! I do believe CaRT have lost sight of the fact that their prime role (after maintenance!), is supposed to be "customer service"!
Am I alone in these thoughts, or do others feel forgotten by those with the responsibility to organise these things at CaRT?

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[john6767]

I don't think that timing is new I am sure it was 12 to 2 when we went there about 5 years ago, it was also limited in the number of boats per day.  As the locks need to be manned to control the number of boats ,and to check they are booked, I don't think it would make sense for CRT to have someone there all day waiting for the few boats that go through the locks each day, so I would say that has to be the main reason for the 2 hour slot.

I don't see why it adds a lot of time, the hire boats all go down one day and back up the next day, so nothing to stop you doing the same.  You have plenty of daylight in the summer to make it down to the end on day one, stop over night, and then back to the locks by 12 the next day.

[Dave_P]

2 minutes ago, john6767 said:

I don't think that timing is new I am sure it was 12 to 2 when we went there about 5 years ago, it was also limited in the number of boats per day.  As the locks need to be manned to control the number of boats ,and to check they are booked, I don't think it would make sense for CRT to have someone there all day waiting for the few boats that go through the locks each day, so I would say that has to be the main reason for the 2 hour slot.

I don't see why it adds a lot of time, the hire boats all go down one day and back up the next day, so nothing to stop you doing the same.  You have plenty of daylight in the summer to make it down to the end on day one, stop over night, and then back to the locks by 12 the next day.

That's what we did.  Down one day, back the next.  It was mid-summer and we booked the day before with no difficulty.  The section just beyond Gronwyn Wharf had just been restored and opened, so we winded at Gronwyn and reversed down the last section to find one of the most beautiful, and certainly the most peaceful mooring I've ever found.  

[john6767]

3 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

That's what we did.  Down one day, back the next.  It was mid-summer and we booked the day before with no difficulty.  The section just beyond Gronwyn Wharf had just been restored and opened, so we winded at Gronwyn and reversed down the last section to find one of the most beautiful, and certainly the most peaceful mooring I've ever found.  

We stopped 2 nights, and we walked the new bit, it was complete but you could not go on it when we were there.  I remember the house down there that already had a mooring built, do they have a boat on it now? 

I just remembered we have a time lapse video of the trip down

 

[Keeping Up]

As far as I can remember the hours have been only 12 to 2.

When we last went there, in 2014, we were able to travel backwards beyond Gronwen to Pryce's Bridge (number 84) to find there a welcoming banner that had been put up for the official opening the next day. There is a brief report with several pictures on our website here.

That section was closed again a short while later. We plan to visit the Monty again this summer, but i assume it's still closed so can probably travel only as far as Gronwen.

 

[Dave_P]

27 minutes ago, Keeping Up said:

As far as I can remember the hours have been only 12 to 2.

When we last went there, in 2014, we were able to travel backwards beyond Gronwen to Pryce's Bridge (number 84) to find there a welcoming banner that had been put up for the official opening the next day. There is a brief report with several pictures on our website here.

That section was closed again a short while later. We plan to visit the Monty again this summer, but i assume it's still closed so can probably travel only as far as Gronwen.

 

I think we were 2014 too.  The lift bridge was up so it was navigable all the way to the end, even though all online info says the limit is at Gronwyn.

[Dave123]

Also went down a couple of years ago, it did make the trip a bit rushed as the Llangollen was an extension to the four counties and the Monty and extension to that, but it is possible to do all the connected restored section and back in 2 days. It would be easier if the opening hours were longer but I can see that it makes sense to concentrate the few boats locking up and down into a couple of hours

[Alway Swilby]

We went down there a couple of weeks ago. Even with the short daylight hours it would have been possible to get to the end and moor for the night then next day come back for the locks to open at 12. As long as you are at the bottom of the locks for about 1:30 they'll lock you through.

The last available winding hole is still at Gronwen Wharf but if you were happy reversing one way you could go to bridge 83 where stop planks get in the way. Beyond here the pound is about a foot down to bridge 84 where there is a dam and lots of work going on beyond. 

There was no boat moored outside the house!

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Alway Swilby
Edited to add the last sentance.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

I assume that it is controlling the loss of water from the Llangollen. Is the canal still used as basically an open toped pipe for the reservoir at Hurleston? If so there may be restrictions on how much water can be let down to the Monty section that CaRT have to stick to. Went there in 2015, but couldn't get beyond the Queen's Head due to a stoppage on one of the locks beyond. Must go back

Jen

[Arthur Marshall]

I went down last year.  Very few places to moor _ I'm sure there were more when I went down twenty years back but may be memory playing up and there were certainly fewer boats on it then.  Can't say I found it very interesting.... the lock-keepers were a pleasure to deal with - don't forget to have a look at the book-swap table by the lock cottage.

[Graham Davis]

13 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I assume that it is controlling the loss of water from the Llangollen. Is the canal still used as basically an open toped pipe for the reservoir at Hurleston? If so there may be restrictions on how much water can be let down to the Monty section that CaRT have to stick to. Went there in 2015, but couldn't get beyond the Queen's Head due to a stoppage on one of the locks beyond. Must go back

Jen

Don't think so, considering the amount of water that flows down the Llangollen all the time.
It is more to do with controlling the numer of boats that are allowed to use the Monty.

[AndrewIC]

I'm pretty sure that there used to be a morning slot and an afternoon slot, would have to check an old Nicholson to be sure.

[Prof]

Yep! I don't remember how long ago, after 55 years of cruising it's difficult to get timings correct! My first trip up the Llangollen was over 40 years ago, but at some point I seem to remember access am and pm!

[Alway Swilby]

Our Nicholsons (2006 edition) shows a complicated arrangement of weekdays 09:30 to 10:30 and 14:30 to 15:30,  Saturdays 10:00 to 12:00 and Sundays 14:00 to 16:00. But knowing Nicholsons that info was probably wrong even then.

You could still easily do the trip to the end and back (about 3 hours each way from the bottom of the flight) in 2 days and you'd be back on the main line by 2pm of day two.

[Mac of Cygnet]

I see that the OP has posted the same complaint, almost word for word, on Narrowboatworld. But without any corrective feedback, of course.

[Keeping Up]

After reading this I remember now, there did used to be a morning slot and an afternoon slot. I seem to recall they changed it so that people couldn't go down and back up on the same day.

[Prof]

1 hour ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

I see that the OP has posted the same complaint, almost word for word, on Narrowboatworld. But without any corrective feedback, of course.

"Corrective feedback"? Surely that suggests incorrect statements?! And I was thinking we were all entitled to our own views? Obviously you don't agree!!

[Graham Davis]

53 minutes ago, Prof said:

"Corrective feedback"? Surely that suggests incorrect statements?! And I was thinking we were all entitled to our own views? Obviously you don't agree!!

Instead of jumping down the throat of an old member of this forum, perhaps it would have been nice of you to find out what he meant.

"narrowboatworld" is well known on this forum of posting inaccurace and possibly plagiarised articles, and where responses are editted to suit them. That I suggest is exaclty what Mac meant.

Perhaps it would also have been wise to do a little research about the history of the modern use of the Monty, and the battles that had to take place to allow ANY boating along the northern sections. Be grateful that we have any, instead of moaning about the limitted access we now enjoy.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Graham Davis

[rasputin]

38 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Instead of jumping down the throat of an old member of this forum, perhaps it would have been nice of you to find out what he meant.

"narrowboatworld" is well known on this forum of posting inaccurace and possibly plagiarised articles, and where responses are editted to suit them. That I suggest is exaclty what Mac meant.

Perhaps it would also have been wise to do a little research about the history of the modern use of the Monty, and the battles that had to take place to allow ANY boating along the northern sections. Be grateful that we have any, instead of moaning about the limitted access we now enjoy.

Is it permitted to jump down the throat of newbies?

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, rasputin said:

Is it permitted to jump down the throat of newbies?

Only between 12:00 and 14:00.

[Prof]

1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

Instead of jumping down the throat of an old member of this forum, perhaps it would have been nice of you to find out what he meant.

"narrowboatworld" is well known on this forum of posting inaccurace and possibly plagiarised articles, and where responses are editted to suit them. That I suggest is exaclty what Mac meant.

Perhaps it would also have been wise to do a little research about the history of the modern use of the Monty, and the battles that had to take place to allow ANY boating along the northern sections. Be grateful that we have any, instead of moaning about the limitted access we now enjoy.

Please don't patronise, I may not post much on the site, but have been a member for some years, and as a boater of 55 years, and boat owner for many of those years, I do have SOME understanding of what goes on, I have also worked as a lock keeper and in the hire boat industry. I obviously have a different opinion regarding how restored canals should be used, bearing in mind that much of the restoration is funded to a greater of lesser extent by BW/CaRT.

I also reiterate that I was under the impression that we were all entitled to an opinion, which you are welcome to disagree with, but I don't see that it is necessary to denigrate me just because I have a different opinion to you, or because I used another site which you disapprove of!

1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

Only between 12:00 and 14:00.

[Mac of Cygnet]

To clarify, I was not criticising the OP for his statements, but implying that Narrowboatworld published his complaints without any real likelihood of contradiction, because they will seize upon any opportunity to publicise a complaint about CRT. Here, on the other hand, you can expect other points of view, some of which you may not expect or like.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Mac of Cygnet

[mayalld]

22 hours ago, Prof said:

As we intend to revisit Llanllogen again this summer, I thought it would be good to finally go down the locks at Frankton and have a couple of days on the connected section of the Montgomery Canal. As we've passed  over the years, I have seen the locks progress from dereliction, to a fully restored, working flight, and thought how nice it would be to go down them and explore at last. I knew there used to be a system of booking for a few hours in the morning and a few hours in the afternoon, but on enquiring I find that now the booking restriction is 12:00 until 14:00 everyday! This would mean adding a minimum of3 days to our trip, instead of the 2 I had anticipated! Time I would love to spend there but unfortunately cannot afford.
Why oh why do CaRT seem to be determined to put people off using the Montgomery, when so much time and effort has been spent on it's restoration?! Surly boats arriving at 9:00 are no more likely to disturb the newts than at 12:00? But the idea of making life convenient for boaters seems to be alien to CaRT!!
As someone who volunteers myself, I am aware that it would cost very little more to man the locks morning AND afternoon than just at lunchtime, if manning is indeed necessary! and it would be so much more convenient for boaters! I do believe CaRT have lost sight of the fact that their prime role (after maintenance!), is supposed to be "customer service"!
Am I alone in these thoughts, or do others feel forgotten by those with the responsibility to organise these things at CaRT?

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I really don't think that this is a cost issue.

CRT have three reasons for managing the passage as they do, and their aim is to restrict the number of boats going onto the canal;

1) The tree huggers don't actually want ANY boats going through the nature reserve (you know, the nature reserve that wasn't there until they restored the canal), and there is a limit of 12 boats per day for environmental reasons (as the offline reserves become established, I believe that this limit is proposed for an increase to 24)

2) There are only a limited amount of visitor mooring available, so allowing more boats down is likely to lead to people trying to moor in unsuitable places, damaging the bank. CRT are only going to increase beyond 12 if

3) CRT have a maximum amount of water that they can take from the Dee above Llangollen, and a minimum amount of water that they are contracted to supply to Hurleston Reservoir, and their losses due to leaks and evaporation. The difference being the maximum amount of water that they can lose at Hurleston and Frankton combined. The "spare" water, after allowing for existing lockages at Hurleston, is enough for 12 lockages a day at Frankton, and if lockages are to increase, some work to reduce losses or possibly back pumping would be required. When there were two passages daily, there was an issue with people going down in the morning and up in the afternoon, just to do Frankton Locks. That was using up the available daily passages for boats that weren't actually making use of the canal.

 

 

[Prof]

Your a braver man than I am Dave, referring to "Tree huggers" but I feel you have hit the nail right on it's proverbial head with all 3 points; NON of which are insurmountable, given the will amongst the powers that be at CaRT!! 

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Prof said:

NON of which are insurmountable, given the will amongst the powers that be at CaRT!!

The current "will" at C&RT appears by many to be to the benefit of the 'tree-huggers', 'newt-nudgers', & 'flora-fondlers' with any left over resources grudgingly spent on boaters requirements.