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Engine Bleeding poss tank leak


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Hi all, Im trying to bleed my engine the thing is Ive just put 30l into the tank ,which wasn't empty as my diesel heater was  working before, and when I suck on the pipe that goes between the tank and the Primary fuel filter I am hearing a slurping noise like when you get to the end of a soft drink with a straw. i can get fuel if i suck hard enough but as soon as i stop sucking and form a seal with my mouth the fuel returns to the tank. 

My questions are;

- Surely over 30l would be enough to reach my fuel pick ups?

- Normally fuel pickups inside the tank stainless? Could the pick up inside of been corroded and has holes in it?

-is it common for the tanks to rot and leak the fuel inside the boat somewhere? Is the Tank double skinned and is leaking into the second cavity?

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Gavin Brunton said:

Hi all, Im trying to bleed my engine the thing is Ive just put 30l into the tank ,which wasn't empty

Why would you be trying to bleed the fuel system if it wasn't 'empty' before (ie was working) and now you have put in an additional 30 litres it should surely be even 'fuller' than it was ?

To answer your questions :

- Surely over 30l would be enough to reach my fuel pick ups? - If it wasn't below the bottom of the pick up previously, then it won't be now.

- Normally fuel pickups inside the tank stainless? I would doubt it - most probably mild steel

- Could the pick up inside of been corroded and has holes in it? If you are in the habit of not keeping your tank full, then the condensation in the tank could well lead to corrosion on the pick-up.

- is it common for the tanks to rot and leak the fuel inside the boat somewhere? Assuming it is a steel narrowboat it is unlikely to rot and leak inside the boat.

- Is the Tank double skinned and is leaking into the second cavity? - extremely unlikely.

 

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The Hurricane heater has its own pick up separate from the engine and they are lower in the tank than the engine ones which was a mistake on my part.

I had a service from RCR and They left me with a no functioning engine. I cant wait until next thursday for them to return. I am annoyed but I want to focus on fixing my engine as it Snowing and I need power for my heater to keep warm. 

Ive sucked on the return feed and it makes a slurping sound as well! Starnge for them both to do that?

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2 hours ago, Gavin Brunton said:

The Hurricane heater has its own pick up separate from the engine and they are lower in the tank than the engine ones which was a mistake on my part.

I had a service from RCR and They left me with a no functioning engine. I cant wait until next thursday for them to return. I am annoyed but I want to focus on fixing my engine as it Snowing and I need power for my heater to keep warm. 

Ive sucked on the return feed and it makes a slurping sound as well! Starnge for them both to do that?

Was it working when RCR arrived or did they come to a broken engine?

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3 hours ago, Gavin Brunton said:

The Hurricane heater has its own pick up separate from the engine and they are lower in the tank than the engine ones which was a mistake on my part.

I had a service from RCR and They left me with a no functioning engine. I cant wait until next thursday for them to return. I am annoyed but I want to focus on fixing my engine as it Snowing and I need power for my heater to keep warm. 

Ive sucked on the return feed and it makes a slurping sound as well! Starnge for them both to do that?

Blimey hope you get sorted soon as poss. In reality there is one way and one way only to ensure a warm boat and that is a solid fuel stove. Keep the flue clear and it works whatever. No leccy no fuel tanks, diesel bug, pick ups etc etc. The Hurricane is a great bit of kit but will go wrong.

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3 hours ago, Gavin Brunton said:

The Hurricane heater has its own pick up separate from the engine and they are lower in the tank than the engine ones which was a mistake on my part.

I had a service from RCR and They left me with a no functioning engine. I cant wait until next thursday for them to return. I am annoyed but I want to focus on fixing my engine as it Snowing and I need power for my heater to keep warm. 

Ive sucked on the return feed and it makes a slurping sound as well! Starnge for them both to do that?

Do you do this with the filler cap on the tank closed? It sounds a bit like there may be no way for air to get into the tank, perhaps a breather is blocked?

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Blow back down the pipe instead, it should be fairly hard to and then errupt in the tank in deep sounding bubbly burps. If its easy to blow and sounds like fizzy bubble burps there still might not be enough fuel in it.  It is quite possible that the piick up pipe in the tank is perforated by corrosion-rust and drawing in air higher up the pipe, in which case put more fuel in it to bring it above that level.

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The fuel pick up pipe on my tank is a copper tube, it passes through a sort of bulkhead fitting to get through the top of the tank, a loose joint there would suck air (but not make bubbling noises)  but if yours is a welded tube then do what Bizzard says, blow down it and see what happens.

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16 hours ago, Gavin Brunton said:

The Hurricane heater has its own pick up separate from the engine and they are lower in the tank than the engine ones which was a mistake on my part.

I had a service from RCR and They left me with a no functioning engine. I cant wait until next thursday for them to return. I am annoyed but I want to focus on fixing my engine as it Snowing and I need power for my heater to keep warm. 

Ive sucked on the return feed and it makes a slurping sound as well! Starnge for them both to do that?

There seems to be more than one issue here.

The engine was working perfectly (drawing fuel from the tank and running OK)

The diesel fired heater was working perfectly (drawing fuel from the same tank as the engine and running OK)

RCR undertook an engine service and engine fails to start.

RCR undertook and engine service and now diesel heating fails to work

Added 30 litres of fuel to the tank and still nothing works.

Engine and Heater have separate fuel pick up points within the tank.

You get a 'slurping' noise when you suck.

You get fuel if you 'suck hard enough'

As I see it the only common factor to both systems is fuel (assuming that RCR did nothing to the heater).

It may be that the fuel was so low that you have pulled muck up into the filters for both systems, and/or pouring in the extra 30 litres has stirred up the muck and blocked the filters.

Have you ever cleaned out the tank ?

Have you 'dipped' the tank to see what is in the bottom ?

Have you checked the condition of the filters ? (maybe they are 90% blocked such that the engine cannot 'suck' hard enough, but you can suck harder)

Whereabouts 'in the system' are you sucking ? (before the main filter, after the main filter, before the secondary filter, after, the secondary filter, on the fuel injection pipes etc etc)

 

Many years ago we had an old Vauxhall Astra, that the fuel gauge never went below about 1/2 full - it was an amazing car but one day the engine stopped even tho' it was 1/2 full of fuel. Investigation showed that the tank was actually half-full of water (and engines don't run well on water). I traced the problem to the fuel filler pipe which ran down inside the rear wheel arch - it had a very small split in it and water was being thrown up by the tyres and very small amounts found their way into the pipe and down into the tank.

If you are in the habit of keeping your tank at low fill levels then you will be suffering from condensation in the tank, this can, over time, produce litre & litres of water which sink to the bottom of the tank, and your diesel then floats on top.

 

Suggestions - 

1) Dip/drain tank to check condition of the fuel/water/muck in the bottom of the tank. (if it is 'bad' having low levels of fuel is an ideal time to drain it all off)

2) Get a stick and 'dip the tank' mark where the fuel level is, keep stick and use that as a 'never get this low fuel gauge'

3) Check and replace (if necessary) all fuel filters.

4) Add another (say) 20 litres of fuel, use dip stick and mark new fuel level, try and see if fuel is getting to engine.

5) Add another (say) 20 litres of fuel, use dip stick and mark new fuel level, try and see if fuel is getting to engine.

6) Add another (say) 20 litres of fuel, use dip stick and mark new fuel level, try and see if fuel is getting to engine.

 

At whatever level of fuel 'starts the engine' mark your stick as 'absolute minimum'. Each additional mark will tell you, you have 20 / 40 litres left so refuel soon.

Alternatively wait until Thursday for RCR to come to the rescue.

 

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If the fuel level was just above the engine pick-up and the heater take-off point is lower than the engine, then when the engine was serviced all would be working, or possibly the engine just stopped for no fuel.  Now if you have run the heater until it stopped - no fuel, then you need to estimate how much fuel the heater has used.  So assuming 1 to 1.5l per hour, if the heater managed 20 plus hours then 30l top up will be enough to get the heater working, but may not be quite enough for the engine.

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On 21/01/2018 at 13:51, Gavin Brunton said:

- Normally fuel pickups inside the tank stainless? Could the pick up inside of been corroded and has holes in it?

Whilst not stainless my steel tube pickups did this, apparently not uncommon. Had them replaced with copper tubing at kings lock Middlewich. No problem since. 

Hour or two labour plus pipe and fittings should come in under £100 dependant on labour charges. 

Spoke to a hire plant manager at a later date and he said thus was not uncommon on his vehicles. 

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So After a few hours getting dirty Ive fixed it. The compression joint  at the difficult to reach tank outlet was undone. Also discovered that RCR hasn't changed my secondary fuel filter was leaking in the fuel line between the second filter and lift pump. It was cracked a little near the compression. Ive cut two small pieces of 8mm copper and joined them with a piece of halfords 5/16 rubber fuel line. Is there and Safety issues with not using copper all the way though so close to the engine? I also added a cheap laser squezey priming pump to make leading the engine 100 times easier and it let me discover and leaks. 

For the record this is the second time RCR broke my boat and I've had to fix it. The first time I was told I needed an additional 4 hours work at 40 quid a pop. I bleed the engine in 10 mins and got it started after discovering they had left several compressions undone. 

FYI my heater has never been a problem. It just needs electricity from my alternator.

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2 hours ago, Gavin Brunton said:

So After a few hours getting dirty Ive fixed it. The compression joint  at the difficult to reach tank outlet was undone. Also discovered that RCR hasn't changed my secondary fuel filter was leaking in the fuel line between the second filter and lift pump. It was cracked a little near the compression. Ive cut two small pieces of 8mm copper and joined them with a piece of halfords 5/16 rubber fuel line. Is there and Safety issues with not using copper all the way though so close to the engine? I also added a cheap laser squezey priming pump to make leading the engine 100 times easier and it let me discover and leaks. 

For the record this is the second time RCR broke my boat and I've had to fix it. The first time I was told I needed an additional 4 hours work at 40 quid a pop. I bleed the engine in 10 mins and got it started after discovering they had left several compressions undone. 

FYI my heater has never been a problem. It just needs electricity from my alternator.

You may run into BSS trouble with the bit of rubber,  dont know the bleed pump so cant comment

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think its a rubber bulb thing like on outboards. Unless marked with the correct ISO/BS number probably a BSS fail as well.

The primer-bulbs are widely fitted on 'lumpy-water' boats as an aid to bleeding fuel systems.

Obviously the BSS is not applied to any boat on the sea - it is just that the Inland Waterways are so much more hazardous environments for boats.

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LINKY

Some  relevant bits

Fuel feed and return hoses must be marked, to denote both suitability for the fuel used and fire resistance, to BS EN ISO 7840 or an equivalent standard.

.......

Fuel line connections must be screwed, compression, cone, brazed or flanged. Flexible fuel hose connections must either be pre-made end fittings on hose assemblies, or hose clips/clamps onto hose nozzles or formed pipe-ends.

 

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