Jump to content

Builders placque


captain flint

Featured Posts

There's a boat for sale with a placque that says "manufactured by New Concept Boats" on it, but it isn't a placque with a HIN/CIN.

The broker said to me that he was told it was a V&G boat, but that now he's seen the placque there must be some mistake, that it's a New Concept boat, and maybe V&G did the fit it.

My own digging suggests New Concept only do fit outs. And digging around on here about V&G I came across Alan Fincher's list of boats built by V&G before they disappeared in a cloud of rising steel prices in 2009. On that list was the very boat I'm talking about

So, the broker is a broker, no real surprises that a boating ignoramus like me doing some diligent scratching around can find out more about the boat before I've even seen it, than an experienced and well informed broker sitting around on his arse doing nothing ;-)

Sorry. I know there are some nice brokers out there. Just like there are some nice estate agents. They say.

My question is about the placque. Presumably people can stick what they want on a boat by way of placques and they don't necessarily mean anything much in and of themselves? And is the phrase "manufactured by" regularly used to just mean "fit out by"???

Just curious, my interest is piqued....

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Methinks you do protest too much -

NB building has (mostly) been a craft industry with some just building hulls and others fitting them out. Fewer would build hulls, get another to do the fit out - but putting their name on the end product. It's not a big enough industry to have its own regulator to agree and control standards. There was an attempt to create a trade body - but I don't know if it still exists.

Accordingly what you have found is not necessarily dodgy, but nor is a single name on the product a guarantee of quality. You have to look at the final result in the flesh for best results.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very often a boat's steelwork is fabricated by 'builder A'.   Then goes to a boat yard which makes it inot a sailaway, 'builder B'.  This is then bought by someone that does the fitting out, 'builder C'.

Which one is the real builder?

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, captain flint said:

There's a boat for sale with a placque that says "manufactured by New Concept Boats" on it, but it isn't a placque with a HIN/CIN.

The broker said to me that he was told it was a V&G boat, but that now he's seen the placque there must be some mistake, that it's a New Concept boat, and maybe V&G did the fit it.

My own digging suggests New Concept only do fit outs. And digging around on here about V&G I came across Alan Fincher's list of boats built by V&G before they disappeared in a cloud of rising steel prices in 2009. On that list was the very boat I'm talking about

So, the broker is a broker, no real surprises that a boating ignoramus like me doing some diligent scratching around can find out more about the boat before I've even seen it, than an experienced and well informed broker sitting around on his arse doing nothing ;-)

Sorry. I know there are some nice brokers out there. Just like there are some nice estate agents. They say.

My question is about the placque. Presumably people can stick what they want on a boat by way of placques and they don't necessarily mean anything much in and of themselves? And is the phrase "manufactured by" regularly used to just mean "fit out by"???

Just curious, my interest is piqued....

 

 

Your last phrase is completely correct. I bought a shell in 99 and fitted it out 99/2000 I did it complying with the new fangled RCD nonsense and paid for it at stages to be checked over by a marine surveyer so it was all legal and proper!!. I attached a brass plate exactly as it should be done. I was and am still on the plate as boatbuilder and the RCD number is made up by yourself to a certain format so yes in short its a bit of baloney and means Jack sh--.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, dor said:

Very often a boat's steelwork is fabricated by 'builder A'.   Then goes to a boat yard which makes it inot a sailaway, 'builder B'.  This is then bought by someone that does the fitting out, 'builder C'.

Which one is the real builder?

A moot point -

As a parallel, before 1939 'quality' cars were built on the basis of a running chassis (= hull) being made by one company and the body ( = fit out) by another. The final car was known generally  by the name of the chassis maker. For the enthusiast, the vehicle was known as XXX with body by YYY. I had a pre-war Alvis with a Charlesworth body. This was considered as top-of-the-range by collectors who looked down on such as Speed 25 with an Offord body. (When you look at them, you'll know why!)

It's similar with narrowboats. The demand on sales makes it not very practical to make boats any other way, but some have tried.  

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Methinks you do protest too much -

 

Accordingly what you have found is not necessarily dodgy

Thanks for your input, obviously I expressed myself badly, didn't mean to suggest there was anything to protest about, nor that there was anything dodgy. Just chit chat, really. If anything, what I've discovered makes me happier, in that whilst I don't know much about either company, a shell by V&G sounds preferable to one by N.C. boats, going by what little over seen and read...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, dor said:

Very often a boat's steelwork is fabricated by 'builder A'.   Then goes to a boat yard which makes it inot a sailaway, 'builder B'.  This is then bought by someone that does the fitting out, 'builder C'.

Which one is the real builder?

 

None of the above, necessarily.

The real builder is the one who commissions the project and employs the three people your list, according to the Recreational Craft Directive. 

The Real Builder might also choose to carry out one or more of the functions on your list himself, instead of subbing the work out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

None of the above, necessarily.

The real builder is the one who commissions the project and employs the three people your list, according to the Recreational Craft Directive. 

The Real Builder might also choose to carry out one or more of the functions on your list himself, instead of subbing the work out. 

That's about right.  My boat has a nice shiny brass plaque on it giving the 'builder' who took the hull and made it into a sailaway.  However the brass plaque with the HIN number on it,  given to me by the surveyor who oversaw the build, has my name on as builder, as recommended by the surveyor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me a boat builder is someone who builds boats (i.e welds the hull) the others are boat fitters but a lot of them call themselves builders (i.e Goldsbrough, Braidber etc) it must be very confusing for a newbie and shouldn't really be allowed for them to false advertise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Tonka said:

To me a boat builder is someone who builds boats (i.e welds the hull) the others are boat fitters but a lot of them call themselves builders (i.e Goldsbrough, Braidber etc) it must be very confusing for a newbie and shouldn't really be allowed for them to false advertise.

Yes, tricky isn't it. If I design a boat,( but I am not a bona fide boatbuilder) get a steel fabricator, (but not necessarily a boat builder), to cut the shapes and weld it up then get a boat builder to fit it out with all the machinery then I suppose I could legally be the builder, but I bet the law would say that everybody else has a duty of care to warn me that the thing is rubbish. If I get e.g. Colecraft to build me a standard narrowboat but I ask for various mods then make a pigs ear of the installations then who is the builder when the thing capsizes? I can feel lawyers sharpening their quill pens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Tonka said:

To me a boat builder is someone who builds boats (i.e welds the hull) the others are boat fitters but a lot of them call themselves builders (i.e Goldsbrough, Braidber etc) it must be very confusing for a newbie and shouldn't really be allowed for them to false advertise.

Speaking as a newbie to the world of buying boats, although I agree, there's a few other "norms" I'd be lining up for correction before that one!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, captain flint said:

Speaking as a newbie to the world of buying boats, although I agree, there's a few other "norms" I'd be lining up for correction before that one!!!

 

Like for example, calling these elongated skips we cruise about in 'boats'?!

:giggles:

 

  • Greenie 1
  • Happy 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Bee said:

Yes, tricky isn't it. If I design a boat,( but I am not a bona fide boatbuilder) get a steel fabricator, (but not necessarily a boat builder), to cut the shapes and weld it up then get a boat builder to fit it out with all the machinery then I suppose I could legally be the builder, but I bet the law would say that everybody else has a duty of care to warn me that the thing is rubbish. If I get e.g. Colecraft to build me a standard narrowboat but I ask for various mods then make a pigs ear of the installations then who is the builder when the thing capsizes? I can feel lawyers sharpening their quill pens.

In the first case you are the designer, and are taking on all the responsibilities for ensuring that the boat complies with the RCD etc.  In the second, Colecraft take all those responsibilities. If you want something non-standard, if the change is trivial in RCD terms, Colecraft may well do it, and continue to be the "builder". But if you want something which is significantly different, I wouldn't be surprised if an established builder like Colecraft simply decline to do it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

In the first case you are the designer, and are taking on all the responsibilities for ensuring that the boat complies with the RCD etc.  In the second, Colecraft take all those responsibilities. If you want something non-standard, if the change is trivial in RCD terms, Colecraft may well do it, and continue to be the "builder". But if you want something which is significantly different, I wouldn't be surprised if an established builder like Colecraft simply decline to do it. 

Who ever signs the final declaration takes responsibility.  So if you ask eg Colecraft to build a rather strange narrowboat they must take responsibility for their work.  In the case of a sailaway, the 'builder' is responsible for everything detailed on the annex 111a (if I remember the cert name correctly) and whoever finishes it off signs the final cert.  Any modifications etc after putting into service are not the responsibility the issuer of the certificate.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Who ever signs the final declaration takes responsibility.  So if you ask eg Colecraft to build a rather strange narrowboat they must take responsibility for their work.  In the case of a sailaway, the 'builder' is responsible for everything detailed on the annex 111a (if I remember the cert name correctly) and whoever finishes it off signs the final cert.  Any modifications etc after putting into service are not the responsibility the issuer of the certificate.  

 

The Annex IIIa declaration (AIUI) is the document issued by a builder who has only done part of the work of building the boat, eg a shell builder. It formally declares his share of the work done on the craft is RCD compliant, to enable "The Builder" to declare RCD compliance of the whole vessel despite not having doing all of the work himself. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It all used to be so simple. I got Arcrite Fabrications to build me a bare shell in 1989. I did the fit out, including marinising an engine out of a Ford transit. But if anyone asked me what boat i had, it was always "an Arcrite." However they didn't do fit outs anyway.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.