Bosch W11 water heater

[BBPIRATES]

Hello,

I've been reading the forums for a while now (since we bought our first boat about 18 months ago) but haven't posted before, as I can usually find what I'm looking for from the helpful replies on other topics. But having trawled the internet and speaking to a few people I still haven't got an answer to a couple of my questions. I'm hoping someone here might be able to shed some light.

1. Is the Bosch W11 LPG heater suitable for a narrowboat? We were recommended it, bought one (from a chandlers), and have now been told that it won't pass the BSS and aren't sure why.

2. How much have people been quoted/would quote to set up an LPG system that just powers instant water heater and hob? 

3. Can anyone recommend a reliable gas-safe person in/around London who replies to emails/texts/phone calls? We've had a bit of bad luck being recommended people who have never got back in touch.

 

Thanks in advance.

[MtB]

Welcome Ms Pirates.

38 minutes ago, BBPIRATES said:

1. Is the Bosch W11 LPG heater suitable for a narrowboat? We were recommended it, bought one (from a chandlers), and have now been told that it won't pass the BSS and aren't sure why.

Well the question that leaps to mind here is who told you this? I can't see any reason for this water heater to be unsuitable. Was he/she a qualified gas installer or BSS inspector? I bet they aren't. The only reason I can think of not to fit one is if your boat has an RCD certificate in which case it might be breached/invalidated. If you care about such things, then no you can't fit it. But hardly anyone does, and there are few consequences other than that someone who cares might refuse to buy your boat. But there is no technical or safety reason not to fit it that I can think of. 

 

45 minutes ago, BBPIRATES said:

2. How much have people been quoted/would quote to set up an LPG system that just powers instant water heater and hob?

How long is your piece of string? And how thick is it? 

What do you mean by 'set up an LPG system'? Is there no gas on your boat now? If you mean install one from scratch then £1k perhaps. Depending on various details including non-technical stuff like where you are, and how close a van can be got to your boat, and if it can be left there unattended for a whole day, the cost could be double this figure, or half. 

 

49 minutes ago, BBPIRATES said:

3. Can anyone recommend a reliable gas-safe person in/around London who replies to emails/texts/phone calls? We've had a bit of bad luck being recommended people who have never got back in touch.

Nope!

Others here might be able to, or try the London Boaters facebook page for a few names...

Hope that helps.

[Richard10002]

I’d guess that the reason some might say it won’t pass the BSS is because it isn’t room sealed. I think some people have found that boat gas installers won’t fit them.

I have a Rinnai gas water heater that isn’t room sealed, and it passed the BSS in 2014. We’ll see how we go in August at the next one.

id go on the Gas Safe site and search for a few boat lpg installers near you and call them all.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I’d guess that the reason some might say it won’t pass the BSS is because it isn’t room sealed.

 

Yes you are probably right about why they say it, but they are wrong. The BSS does not say you cannot have an open flue water heater (unless you can quote where!) The RCD however says you can't (as I said earlier), but few people out here in the real world out here care much about that as the RCD is for new builds only.

 

7 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I think some people have found that boat gas installers won’t fit them.

Again you are right, some boat gas installers won't fit them claiming they are 'against the regs', but they are wrong and will not be able to cite any reg banning them if challenged. 

[BBPIRATES]

31 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Well the question that leaps to mind here is who told you this? I can't see any reason for this water heater to be unsuitable. Was he/she a qualified gas installer or BSS inspector? I bet they aren't. The only reason I can think of not to fit one is if your boat has an RCD certificate in which case it might be breached/invalidated. If you care about such things, then no you can't fit it. But hardly anyone does, and there are few consequences other than that someone who cares might refuse to buy your boat. But there is no technical or safety reason not to fit it that I can think of. 

Thanks for the reply.

 

It was a person who is meant to be both gas safe and an inspector... It's a very old boat with next to no paperwork/history, etc. so nothing to invalidate. We just want it ready to live on as we've been working on it for over a year and a half and are getting impatient/despondent, so not too concerned about selling it on yet. 

34 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What do you mean by 'set up an LPG system'? Is there no gas on your boat now? If you mean install one from scratch then £1k perhaps.

There was when we got it but everything was in such bad condition we decided to start again, so it would be from scratch. 

 

35 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Depending on various details including non-technical stuff like where you are, and how close a van can be got to your boat, and if it can be left there unattended for a whole day, the cost could be double this figure, or half. 

We're in a marina, right on the outskirts of London. A van can get right close to the boat and could definitely be left unattended for the whole day. We've been quoted over twice as much and were wondering if that was regular.

 

17 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I’d guess that the reason some might say it won’t pass the BSS is because it isn’t room sealed. I think some people have found that boat gas installers won’t fit them.

I have a Rinnai gas water heater that isn’t room sealed, and it passed the BSS in 2014. We’ll see how we go in August at the next one.

id go on the Gas Safe site and search for a few boat lpg installers near you and call them all.

I was thinking the same re the room-sealed but like Mike the Boilerman said there's nothing that actually prohibits them.

Thanks for the tip, I'll have a look.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, BBPIRATES said:

We're in a marina, right on the outskirts of London. A van can get right close to the boat and could definitely be left unattended for the whole day. We've been quoted over twice as much and were wondering if that was regular.

 

 

Ok so if there was a gas system before there must be a compliant gas locker, and a route already there for the pipe to follow, and no van parking problems so I'd say a long day's work to do the installation, say £500. And about the same again for materials, so £1,000 all in seems about right to me. 

I'd ask this gas safe bss bod to quote you the exact regulation(s) your water heater will breach then. I'll be most interested to hear as I can't think of any. But I don't install stuff so might be out of date on the regs governing what can and can't be fitted. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[BBPIRATES]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok so if there was a gas system before there must be a compliant gas locker, and a route already there for the pipe to follow, and no van parking problems so I'd say a long day's work to do the installation, say £500. And about the same again for materials, so £1,000 all in seems about right to me.

So, I'm not sure how the BSS passed the last time it did. There was no gas locker, just an open hole outside the cabin that the gas bottle sat in. We've built in a gas locker now. We also had the wrong type of pipe put in by a friend who is a land-plumber. The pipe will be removed but the route is there. 

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'd ask this gas safe bss bod to quote you the exact regulation(s) your water heater will breach then. I'll be most interested to hear as I can't think of any. But I don't install stuff so might be out of date on the regs governing what can and can't be fitted.

Yep, I'll ask him.

[MtB]

Actually there IS something, a bit marginal. He might say gas appliances must be installed in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, and the MI needs to state the appliance is specifically suitable for boats. I read the manual earlier and it doesn't state anything about fitting it in boats so this might be the basis of his assertion. 

If so, an appeal to the BSS Office would be a good idea. I think they would overrule him.

[BWM]

Another factor when installing a water heater such as this is where it is situated, you could not fit one in a bathroom or bedroom for instance. A competent installer will advise you on this. 

[DHutch]

2 hours ago, BWM said:

Another factor when installing a water heater such as this is where it is situated, you could not fit one in a bathroom or bedroom for instance. A competent installer will advise you on this. 

Could you not? Few would choose a bedroom but I have certainly seen a lot of Paloma's in bathrooms.

 

Daniel

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, DHutch said:

Could you not? Few would choose a bedroom but I have certainly seen a lot of Paloma's in bathrooms.

 

Daniel

As I understand it cannot be fitted in a bathroom for a liveaboard (GSIUR regulations) and is not advised for 'leisure boats' for a number of reasons previously discussed on this forum.

GSIUR Regulation 30

30.—

(1)  No person shall install a gas appliance in a room used or intended to be used as a bathroom or a shower room unless it is a room-sealed appliance.

(2)  No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of more than 14 kilowatt gross heat input in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation unless the appliance is a room-sealed appliance.

(3)  No person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of 14 kilowatt gross heat input or less in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation and no person shall install an instantaneous water heater unless (in each case)— (a) it is a room-sealed appliance; or (b) it incorporates a safety control designed to shut down the appliance before there is a build up of a dangerous quantity of the products of combustion in the room concerned.

(4)  The references in paragraphs (1) to (3) to a room used or intended to be used for the purpose therein referred to includes a reference to— (a) a cupboard or compartment within such a room; or (b) a cupboard, compartment or space adjacent to such a room if there is an air vent from the cupboard, compartment or space into such a room.
 

So any qualified Gas Bod would refuse to fit it.

On the majority of boats the typical area where a 'paloma' is fitted (Kitchen) could also be classed as the 'bedroom'.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So any qualified Gas Bod would refuse to fit it.

On the majority of boats the typical area where a 'paloma' is fitted (Kitchen) could also be classed as the 'bedroom'.

 

And would be wrong to refuse on that basis, as the Paloma and the Bosch W11 are both less than 14kw. 

Mind you, I’d strongly advise against fitting one in a sleeping area too, even though it does not actually contravene the gas regs. 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And would be wrong to refuse on that basis, as the Paloma and the Bosch W11 are both less than 14kw. 

Did you read the part I made in BOLD ? (sub-para 3)

 

28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

......no person shall install a gas fire, other gas space heater or a gas water heater of 14 kilowatt gross heat input or less

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Did you read the part I made in BOLD ? (sub-para 3)

 

 

 

Yes I did, which is why I posted what I posted. 

[Richard10002]

10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes you are probably right about why they say it, but they are wrong. The BSS does not say you cannot have an open flue water heater (unless you can quote where!) The RCD however says you can't (as I said earlier), but few people out here in the real world out here care much about that as the RCD is for new builds only.

 

Again you are right, some boat gas installers won't fit them claiming they are 'against the regs', but they are wrong and will not be able to cite any reg banning them if challenged. 

I can't quote anywhere and, as I said, mine passed the BSS in 2014. When advising me to increase the size of my air vents, the inspector said that they were fine for normal life, but he had to consider the day when all 4 gas burners and oven were on full, and someone was having a shower, so he had obviously given the water heater some thought, as well as looking up its combustion details.

I guess that, even if an installer couldn't find any regulation banning them, they could still refuse to fit, for any reason they like.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes I did, which is why I posted what I posted. 

Your knowledge on the subject is vastly superior to mine & I am easily confused, so would you be kind enough to explain why/how an 'under 14Kw', non-room sealed, non 'auto shut down', water heater can be installed in a live-aboard narrow boat in the lounge, kitchen, bedroom, or bathroom.

That seems to me to be totally at odds with Section 30 (3)

Edited January 19, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Alan de Enfield]

12 hours ago, BBPIRATES said:

1. Is the Bosch W11 LPG heater suitable for a narrowboat? We were recommended it, bought one (from a chandlers), and have now been told that it won't pass the BSS and aren't sure why.

Interesting that a Chandlers should sell this when the manufacturers state :

"These boilers are not intended for fitting on to boats, and, the warranty will not cover them"

 

https://www.spirit-leisure-accessories.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1556328-Worcester-Bosch-W11-LPG-Water-Heater-Including-vertical-Flue-Kit.html

[MtB]

On 19/01/2018 at 11:52, Alan de Enfield said:

Your knowledge on the subject is vastly superior to mine & I am easily confused, so would you be kind enough to explain why/how an 'under 14Kw', non-room sealed, non 'auto shut down', water heater can be installed in a live-aboard narrow boat in the lounge, kitchen, bedroom, or bathroom.

That seems to me to be totally at odds with Section 30 (3)

 

I too am easily confused and misread Section 30 (3) as saying we may not fit an open flue appliance over 14kW heat input in a bedroom. It says under 14kW

Now the bit that made me misread it is the implication that an open flue appliance over 14kW is fine to fit when common sense suggests if under 14kW is dangerous, over 14kW would be more dangerous. not less. 

Curious. 

 

I too would refuse to fit ANY open flue appliance in a sleeping area. I wouldn't blame 'the regs' like most gas fitters, I'd just say I personally regard it as unsafe and I won't do it. 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I too am easily confused and misread Section 30 (3) as saying we may not fit an open flue appliance over 14kW heat input in a bedroom. It says under 14kW

Now the bit that made me misread it is the implication that an open flue appliance over 14kW is fine to fit when common sense suggests if under 14kW is dangerous, over 14kW would be more dangerous. not less. 

Curious. 

 

I too would refuse to fit ANY open flue appliance in a sleeping area. I wouldn't blame 'the regs' like most gas fitters, I'd just say I personally regard it as unsafe and I won't do it. 

Subsection (2) states that OVER 14Kw may not be fitted.

Subsection (3) states that UNDER 14Kw may not be fitted.

 

Why not just say NONE can be fitted ?

[Richard10002]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 Subsection 3 implies that UNDER 14Kw can be fitted if they have an automatic cutoff device. My Rinnai has one, and i'd guess the Bosch has one, (but dont know for sure).

Dont know why this is red italics

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 Subsection 3 implies that UNDER 14Kw can be fitted if they have an automatic cutoff device. My Rinnai has one, and i'd guess the Bosch has one, (but dont know for sure).

Dont know why this is red italics

The Bosch appears to have a 'cut-off' if it detects a fault in the flue, it doesn't specifically state that it measures and responds to the 'products of combustion'.

It could be it does - but irrespective, the heater is not compliant with the RCD as it not permitted for installation in boats.

A 'Gas Fitter' would probably read the manufacturers statement and refuse to fit it (as no doubt in the event of an accident it would be suggested that it was not installed by a competent person - if you cannot follow manufacturers installation instructions it may not be easy to prove you are competent.)

[MtB]

On 19/01/2018 at 19:02, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A 'Gas Fitter' would probably read the manufacturers statement and refuse to fit it (as no doubt in the event of an accident it would be suggested that it was not installed by a competent person - if you cannot follow manufacturers installation instructions it may not be easy to prove you are competent.)

 

That's rather a leap of logic.

There is no manufacturer's 'statement of suitability' in the official installation manual, so while it doesn't state this water heater is for use in boats, neither does it say it is suitable for caravans, houses, log cabins, horseboxes, catering vehicles or any other situation it will obviously get used for. Nowhere does the manual say this water heater is UNsuitable for boats, and in the world of gas the Manufacturer's Instructions trump even the gas regulations, so we are taught.

 

On 19/01/2018 at 19:02, Alan de Enfield said:

The Bosch appears to have a 'cut-off' if it detects a fault in the flue, it doesn't specifically state that it measures and responds to the 'products of combustion'.

 

From the sketchy manual I don't think it has a vitiation device (which shuts the flame off if the oxygen percentage in the atmosphere falls below a certain value), so it meets neither requirement 30 (3) (a) or (b) and therefore cannot be installed in a liveaboard boat. 

Ok, I think we are there!

Perfectly legal to install in a leisure tub though, unless a new-build.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[alan_fincher]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Interesting that a Chandlers should sell this when the manufacturers state :

"These boilers are not intended for fitting on to boats, and, the warranty will not cover them"

 

https://www.spirit-leisure-accessories.co.uk/ourshop/prod_1556328-Worcester-Bosch-W11-LPG-Water-Heater-Including-vertical-Flue-Kit.html

Does the manufacturer state this?

Surely it is the retailer saying this?

A quick scan of the actual Bosch W11 Installation and Operating instruction Manual seems to make no reference at all to fitting in boats.  I couldn't even find a manufacturers reference to bathrooms or bedrooms.

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There is no manufacturer's 'statement of suitability', so while it doesn't state this water heater is for use in boats, neither does it say it is suitable for it is suitable for caravans, houses, log cabins, horseboxes, catering vehicles or any other situation it will obviously get use for. Neither does it say it is not suitable for boats. 

 

14 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Does the manufacturer state this?

Surely it is the retailer saying this?

Yes, maybe it is a bit of a 'leap' but whilst it does not appear that the manufacturers quote it in their manual I would suggest it would not be in their agents interest to invent statements that reduce their potential market.

The agent states that the boiler is designed for mobile / static / holiday homes and is not intended for fitting in boats, and, if it is, the warranty is void.

 

I guess if anyone cares enough they could contact Worcester Bosch and ask them directly.

[MtB]

On 19/01/2018 at 22:57, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes, maybe it is a bit of a 'leap' but whilst it does not appear that the manufacturers quote it in their manual I would suggest it would not be in their agents interest to invent statements that reduce their potential market.

The agent states that the boiler is designed for mobile / static / holiday homes and is not intended for fitting in boats, and, if it is, the warranty is void.

 

The sales agent is NOT the manufacturer, and carries none of their authority in technical compliance matters. Imagine it were the other way around and I was in the dock for fitting a water heater in contravention of the MI and someone died. Would my defence that a sales agent appointed by the manufacturer said it was ok even though the official MI said otherwise?

 

On 19/01/2018 at 22:57, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess if anyone cares enough they could contact Worcester Bosch and ask them directly.

 

I don't think this is anything to do with Worcester-Bosch. This is made by Bosch in Germany as far as I know, and designed prior to them buying the British Boiler firm Worcester. No details in the manual though.