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Gudleik Helle

Pelapone Ricardo

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I have an old diesel el-power generator. It is build in 1943, I think. It is Pelapone Ricardo 52 diesel engine (2 cylinder) 28 - 30 hp. and a A. van Kaick generator. It came to Norway same times during 2-nd ww. and was sold to sivil use after war. It came to our farm about 1965. Engine starts and run well. Now i wonder about price for this item. There is some interrest for it. 

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It's very hard to put a value on such an engine. It is interesting because there won't be many of them. The manual dates from after 1948, that's when they moved to Slack Lane in Derby. That doesn't necessarily mean the engine is from that date

As a boat engine, it would only be of interest to someone who really wanted it. I guess that there will be next to no spares for one, so unless it is in really good order it is potentially a liability - what happens if it goes wrong?

It is probably of more interest as a stationary engine, although I guess it is a bit big for them

Richard

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9 hours ago, RLWP said:

It's very hard to put a value on such an engine. It is interesting because there won't be many of them. The manual dates from after 1948, that's when they moved to Slack Lane in Derby. That doesn't necessarily mean the engine is from that date

As a boat engine, it would only be of interest to someone who really wanted it. I guess that there will be next to no spares for one, so unless it is in really good order it is potentially a liability - what happens if it goes wrong?

It is probably of more interest as a stationary engine, although I guess it is a bit big for them

Richard

I suspect that the engine may be older than 1948, may be engine-no. can tell that.what I can reed, the number is 529902. That person who is interested in this, he is very active in a club collecting vintage technical farm equipment as stationary engines, tractors, plows etc etc. 

Regards

Gudleik

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As Richard says, not really a boat engine. There may well be someone who can date  your engine and have some better idea of its value on the forum at internalfire.com.  Internal fire is a registered museum for internal combustion engines and they have a lot of information.

N

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I do know that British Railways had quite a number of Pelapone engined generating sets used as emergency generators in signalling modernisation schemes in the 50's when colour light signals were introduced. Always had low hours, just started occasionally to test them and kept in a nice warm dry signal box!

Since those early power signalling installations have themselves now been modernised, the stand-by generators were probably mostly scrapped too.

Probably make a nice boat engine as a 1500 rpm 28bhp twin, and quite simple to marinise, but as noted above, you won't even be able to get a coat of paint as a spare part!

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On 14/01/2018 at 11:03, BEngo said:

As Richard says, not really a boat engine. There may well be someone who can date  your engine and have some better idea of its value on the forum at internalfire.com.  Internal fire is a registered museum for internal combustion engines and they have a lot of information.

N

 

I'm puzzled. Why isn't it a good boat engine? Just because it isn't marinised? Or some other reason? The spec looks perfect to me.

Has an amazing name too!

  • Greenie 1

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm puzzled. Why isn't it a good boat engine? Just because it isn't marinised? Or some other reason? The spec looks perfect to me.

Has an amazing name too!

...and one which, despite my interest in old engines and despite being Derbyshire-born, I had never heard of until this thread.

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10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Just because it isn't marinised?

Has an amazing name too!

That, and if it goes wrong you are into all kinds of trouble

Did you look up the name? Ricardo because of their involvement in the Comet combustion chamber design. PELAPONE is an acronym: 'Prudence's Engines Lighting And Power Oil & Nautical Engines'

http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/New_Pelapone_Engine_Co.

Richard

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ah yes, you mean like with, say, Gleniffers too? 

It's good thing there are ingenious people like you around!

Now you mention it... Exactly like that

Richard

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14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'm puzzled. Why isn't it a good boat engine? Just because it isn't marinised? Or some other reason? The spec looks perfect to me.

Has an amazing name too!

I guess it is all about how brave you are prepared to be, and go with something either barely known or totally unknown about in narrow boat circles.

I know you are up for a challenge, but surely you would struggle everything you have fitted to a boat, however interesting, was always a good choice?
 

I suppose if you have a spare boat which you can use if the other one can't be, then it helps.  Even better, I guess, if you already have backup engines you can fit if you need to, but I'd be intrigued what the cost of each swap actually is if you are honest about it, however cheaply the engines themselves may be acquired.

Even a swap of a bog standard Lister HA3 to a bog standard Lister HA2 cost me a lot more than I might have hoped, so if I'm putting an engine in, my hope would be of something reliable, and not where looking for spares is a nightmare if things go wrong.

But I fully accept it is a personal choice, and even I, if I wanted an easy life, would have a modern boat with a Beta (or similar) rather than historic ones with air cooled Listers all more than 50 years old.  I might have got a lot more boating done over the last 3 yeras if that were the case!

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3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I suppose if you have a spare boat which you can use if the other one can't be, then it helps.  Even better, I guess, if you already have backup engines you can fit if you need to, but I'd be intrigued what the cost of each swap actually is if you are honest about it, however cheaply the engines themselves may be acquired.

 

Why might I not be honest about it? 

I'd say fitting the K1 set me back about £7k ten years ago. Fitting the Skandia into Reg cost well into five figures (I daren't add it up) if I include the new footings and baseplate that turned out to be needed. And possibly even if I didn't!

OTOH removing the disastrous Skandia and temporarily fitting the Kingfisher cost me less than £300 all in, doing it myself. 

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Why might I not be honest about it?

Sorry, it was not meant to look like you wouldn't.

I'll excuse you the cost of a new bottom and footings from your engine sums, as you probably needed that anyway :D

So back on topic, what would you estimate to take an engine like the largely unknown one here, marinise it, fit with suitable gearbox, and put it in a suitable boat?

(Obviously costs would depend on things like whether it will drop straight into existing engine beds, and whether the currently fitted prop is suitable).

Would you be prepared to spend that amount to put this engine into one of your boats, (if only because it has an amazing name)?  If "yes" then I suppose for you at least it is a suitable narrow boat engine, but if "no" then I still suggest for the majority of people it probably is not.

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15 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Would you be prepared to spend that amount to put this engine into one of your boats, (if only because it has an amazing name)?  If "yes" then I suppose for you at least it is a suitable narrow boat engine, but if "no" then I still suggest for the majority of people it probably is not.

 

Hold on now, I'd say ANY vintage engine is unsuitable for a narrowboat if cost is your criterion. 

I was suggesting this Pelapone-Ricardo being a slow revving two cylinder 28hp diesel would be PERFECT for a narrowboat with a proper engine room. Far better than a noisy air cooled Lister!  I've yet to see any technical reason for this not to be the case. 

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10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I've yet to see any technical reason for this not to be the case. 

<Richard runs for cover>

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There is no reason why the Pelapone could not be marinised and installed in a narrow boat. Expect to spend around £3k on the gearbox and adaptors and a further £1k on mounting steels, temperature control, alternator and water pump stuff. No different than any of the ex truck / bus / crane / locomotive engines we convert as our daily business. Maintaining it in the longer term is not impossible but tracking down another as a donor would be prudent.  No different to owning a Glennifer 

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I was suggesting this Pelapone-Ricardo being a slow revving two cylinder 28hp diesel would be PERFECT for a narrowboat with a proper engine room. Far better than a noisy air cooled Lister!  I've yet to see any technical reason for this not to be the case. 

It's a view, but I can't agree in respect of a proper historic boat.

To me a large part of historic boat ownership is to have an engine associated with the boat, (that assumes they had one in the first place of course!).

So for example "Flamingo" has exactly the same air cooled Lister engine type, (and almost certainly the same engine), as was installed for her final few years of long distance commercial carrying.

A PERFECT engine for "Flamingo" is therefore either a Lister HA2, (or alternatively a National 2DM, as it had originally), but any other slow revving 28hp lump doesn't really cut it for me.  *t is not authentic to the boat.

But if your pleasure is to fit narrow boats with ancient engines they never actually had, (or to put those in a modern boat), that's quite different of course!

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6 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

It's a view, but I can't agree in respect of a proper historic boat.

 

Where did I say anything about historic boats?

Closest I got was mentioning a boat with a proper engine room. (Which all of my boats have :) )

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
Grammar and layout.

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Where did I say anything about historic boats?

Closest I got was mentioning a boat with a proper engine room. (Which all of my boats have :) )

Nah, it is not a proper engine room if you can walk through the boat from one end to the other! :lol:

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2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Nah, it is not a proper engine room if you can walk through the boat from one end to the other! :lol:

 

Ok I agree, you win!!!

But I hope you'll agree, if you love old vintage engines using one to push a boat around is a FAR better use for it than putting it on a trailer and dragging it around the vintage engine shows. 

  • Greenie 1

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

But I hope you'll agree, if you love old vintage engines using one to push a boat around is a FAR better use for it than putting it on a trailer and dragging it around the vintage engine shows. 

Yes, I agree.

I'm happy for anybody to put anything that is interesting/rare/exotic in a boat at their leisure, (and expense!), and am happy to enjoy it, if it takes my fancy.  My personal preference is that they don't do it in an historic boat if an engine more in keeping with that boat is an option - but maybe that's just me?

That doesn't though in my view in itself qualify an engine so treated as a "perfect narrow boat engine", but if I don't have to live with it, and any unreliabilities, (and pay the bills!), then yep that's absolutely fine.

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