Tidal Thames cruise in July

[Grassman]

 

My wife and I are planning to go onto the Thames in our narrowboat in July, leaving Limehouse and travelling upriver. Having cruised the Trent down to Keadby and the Yorkshire Ouse as well, I do have some experience of tidal rivers however I appreciate that the Thames through London is a different beast.

I have my VHF and have done the research (excellent information and links from this forum) but I'd be more comfortable travelling the tidal section with another boater and not necessarily anybody who has done it before, because even just having the companionship with a fellow 'Thames novice' with their narrowboat  close at hand would add to the enjoyment.

I feel that having somebody else travelling with us would give me more confidence and peace of mind that if anything went wrong, or we were unsure of anything we could perhaps help each other out. Also we could take photos of each others boat as we go which would give a different perspective to our respective photo collections.

I'm thinking of July, either the 7th or 8th when the tides are suitable for leaving Limehouse fairly early (5- 6am ish) before the river gets busy with trip boats.

So if any of you would be interested in accompanying us with your boat around that time please let me know. I've enquired with St Pancras Cruising Club, but they don't appear to have any of their cruising events around this time and unfortunately my timings aren't very flexible. A while ago I also contacted the local IWA branch to see if any of their members are interested but have had no response so far.

[OldGoat]

You've ticked all the right boxes and done your research - I'm impressed (don't forget an anchor).

The Tideway is great when the trip boats are not running.

Are you coming on to the non tidal bit?

[Peter X]

I don't have a boat and I'm very busy on the 7th July and perhaps away for the week after that, but if you do switch to an earlier date and have a spare lifejacket I'd be interested in coming along as crew. An extra pair of hands with some boating experience may be useful. Although I've lived in London most of my life and seen the river a lot from the banks, bridges, office windows etc. over the years, I haven't yet boated below Brentford.

[Grassman]

9 hours ago, OldGoat said:

You've ticked all the right boxes and done your research - I'm impressed (don't forget an anchor).

The Tideway is great when the trip boats are not running.

Are you coming on to the non tidal bit?

I'm well prepared thanks mainly to research on this excellent forum and the links from it to other sources of information.

Yes we plan to go all the way to Lechlade and then back downstream to join the Oxford Canal.

9 hours ago, Peter X said:

I don't have a boat and I'm very busy on the 7th July and perhaps away for the week after that, but if you do switch to an earlier date and have a spare lifejacket I'd be interested in coming along as crew. An extra pair of hands with some boating experience may be useful. Although I've lived in London most of my life and seen the river a lot from the banks, bridges, office windows etc. over the years, I haven't yet boated below Brentford.

Sorry Peter but we have things going on beforehand which prevent us going any earlier. However, if nearer the time things change you'd be very welcome and I will send you a PM if that situation arises.

[alan_fincher]

I also congratulate you on your research and preparation.

I do somewhat fear that ultimately some disaster by someone who is ill prepared or has an unsuitable boat will lead to a situation where narrow boat owners are no longer permitted out of Limehouse.

I can't help with your request unfortunately, but it does raise again questions I have always had in my mind.

Both times we have done it, (not for some years) circumstances have dictated we were the only narrow boat through that cycle of the lock.  It always felt like being with another boat would offer some reassurance.  However I do seriously wonder the extent to which another narrow boat could help in the case of mechanical difficulties.  About half your total speed over land is the tide, or at least it was in our case, and I assumed if you had tried to turn and go back the other way, you would be struggling to make much headway at all.  I'm not convinced you could easily get to another stricken boat and take it in tow.

Does anybody know of cases where one narrow boat has successfully rescued another, and how difficult was it?

I can certainly see another VHF boat might be better placed to summon help, if those on board a boat in difficulties were not easily able to do so, but beyond that I wonder how much extra security is offered by multiple narrow boats travelling together.

[Victor Vectis]

I might be wrong but I'm sure I read of a boat having engine trouble after leaving Limehouse on one of the SPCC downstream cruises.

IIRC the boat turned around (and was escorted?) back to Limehouse.

[Alan de Enfield]

58 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Does anybody know of cases where one narrow boat has successfully rescued another, and how difficult was it?

We have - Not on the Thames, but on the non-tidal Trent just above Cromwell lock with a fair bit of flow.

It was successful but very difficult.

We had two NBs taking turns in trying to come alongside, but taking care that the broken down boat did not heavily collide with the rescue boat, swept away each time, took a total of 6 attempts to get a line across.

[Joe Bourke]

Once upon a time we left Torksey heading for Keadby along with several other narrowboats most of whom were friends who had been cruising with us. Anyway shortly after leaving Torksey one Narrowboat started having problems, engine kept cutting out, and finally stopping altogether. He ended up drifting down river, but fortunately away from the banks. We got alongside, and after a bit of tinkering without any joy, we decided to breast him down to Keadby. We were concerned that further delay would prevent us getting in. Of course we had the option of leaving him at Gainsborough or West Stockwith. Anyway decision made, hell for leather for Keadby. Arrived in the nick of time, rolled over the sand bar outside Keadby Lock and in, still breasted up. When we got him moored up and had a look we found his fuel filter was blocked up with rubbish. No spare filter, so we flushed out the one he had as best we could, replaced it and the engine got running.

The same boat the following year,  and on the Trent, broke down again, this time he lobbed his anchor out. His anchor rope snapped before the anchor hit the bottom. Another boat who was in company with him,  again went to his rescue. Talk about Benny Hill.

On another occasion we came down the Trent to Keadby and shared the lock with another Narrowboat. While in the lock his engine conked. We breasted him out. After tying up and failing to get his engine going, we finally found the answer. No diesel in the tank. We had to get some out of our fuel tank. How lucky was he ?

 

 

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Joe Bourke said:

Once upon a time we left Torksey heading for Keadby along with several other narrowboats most of whom were friends who had been cruising with us. Anyway shortly after leaving Torksey one Narrowboat started having problems, engine kept cutting out, and finally stopping altogether. He ended up drifting down river, but fortunately away from the banks. We got alongside, and after a bit of tinkering without any joy, we decided to breast him down to Keadby. We were concerned that further delay would prevent us getting in. Of course we had the option of leaving him at Gainsborough or West Stockwith. Anyway decision made, hell for leather for Keadby. Arrived in the nick of time, rolled over the sand bar outside Keadby Lock and in, still breasted up. When we got him moored up and had a look we found his fuel filter was blocked up with rubbish. No spare filter, so we flushed out the one he had as best we could, replaced it and the engine got running.

The same boat the following year,  and on the Trent, broke down again, this time he lobbed his anchor out. His anchor rope snapped before the anchor hit the bottom. Another boat who was in company with him,  again went to his rescue. Talk about Benny Hill.

On another occasion we came down the Trent to Keadby and shared the lock with another Narrowboat. While in the lock his engine conked. We breasted him out. After tying up and failing to get his engine going, we finally found the answer. No diesel in the tank. We had to get some out of our fuel tank. How lucky was he ?

 

 

 Just like muppets who run out of fuel on a motorway!!

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Joe Bourke said:

Once upon a time we left Torksey heading for Keadby along with several other narrowboats most of whom were friends who had been cruising with us. Anyway shortly after leaving Torksey one Narrowboat started having problems, engine kept cutting out, and finally stopping altogether. He ended up drifting down river, but fortunately away from the banks. We got alongside, and after a bit of tinkering without any joy, we decided to breast him down to Keadby. We were concerned that further delay would prevent us getting in. Of course we had the option of leaving him at Gainsborough or West Stockwith. Anyway decision made, hell for leather for Keadby. Arrived in the nick of time, rolled over the sand bar outside Keadby Lock and in, still breasted up. When we got him moored up and had a look we found his fuel filter was blocked up with rubbish. No spare filter, so we flushed out the one he had as best we could, replaced it and the engine got running.

The same boat the following year,  and on the Trent, broke down again, this time he lobbed his anchor out. His anchor rope snapped before the anchor hit the bottom. Another boat who was in company with him,  again went to his rescue. Talk about Benny Hill.

On another occasion we came down the Trent to Keadby and shared the lock with another Narrowboat. While in the lock his engine conked. We breasted him out. After tying up and failing to get his engine going, we finally found the answer. No diesel in the tank. We had to get some out of our fuel tank. How lucky was he ?

 

 

A group of well prepared boaters who obviously don't give a 'monkeys' about the risks other folks have to put them selves into to help them out.

Maybe 'Darwin' should have been invoked.

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I also congratulate you on your research and preparation.

I do somewhat fear that ultimately some disaster by someone who is ill prepared or has an unsuitable boat will lead to a situation where narrow boat owners are no longer permitted out of Limehouse.

I can't help with your request unfortunately, but it does raise again questions I have always had in my mind.

Both times we have done it, (not for some years) circumstances have dictated we were the only narrow boat through that cycle of the lock.  It always felt like being with another boat would offer some reassurance.  However I do seriously wonder the extent to which another narrow boat could help in the case of mechanical difficulties.  About half your total speed over land is the tide, or at least it was in our case, and I assumed if you had tried to turn and go back the other way, you would be struggling to make much headway at all.  I'm not convinced you could easily get to another stricken boat and take it in tow.

Does anybody know of cases where one narrow boat has successfully rescued another, and how difficult was it?

I can certainly see another VHF boat might be better placed to summon help, if those on board a boat in difficulties were not easily able to do so, but beyond that I wonder how much extra security is offered by multiple narrow boats travelling together.

I was once towed by another boat when shortly after coming out of Brentford and heading up to Teddington one of my fanbelts snapped and the engine started to overheat. Since we'd just left Brentford the tide wasn't running very fast and the other boat was easily able to come back to rescue me. I also know of another case where some friends lost power and were rescued by another narrowboat in Central London and towed all the way up to Brentford. I wasn't there myself so I don't know the exact details or how fast the tide was running.

Edit: Just reading the other posts which mention coming alongside and bresting up. Bresting up on a canal is fine, but I'm not sure if the butty-style canal approach is appropriate on fast and possibly lumpy tidal rivers? Towing sounds like a safer option to me. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by blackrose

[Iain_S]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

(snip)

However I do seriously wonder the extent to which another narrow boat could help in the case of mechanical difficulties.  About half your total speed over land is the tide, or at least it was in our case, and I assumed if you had tried to turn and go back the other way, you would be struggling to make much headway at all.  I'm not convinced you could easily get to another stricken boat and take it in tow.

(snip)

But the stricken boat will also be going with the tide, so that it's speed through water and not speed over ground that's important in getting to them. (Of course, if they've managed to anchor, then it might be different!)

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, Iain_S said:

But the stricken boat will also be going with the tide, so that it's speed through water and not speed over ground that's important in getting to them. (Of course, if they've managed to anchor, then it might be different!)

Quite a possibility they will be jammed across a bridge arch or rammed into some kind of floating pontoon or landing stage I would say!  Although I fortunately have no experience of it, it seems likely to me that once you are powerless and carried along by the tide, you would have very little control as to where you might end up.

[Scholar Gypsy]

I've done quite a bit of crewing on  tideway trips. I will look at my diary and see if I can help. I am a SPCC country member. 

I've been involved in serveral incidents where one NB has rescued another. For example when we rafted up https://nbsg.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/thames-tideway-may-10th/

 

Quite a few incidents are caused by fuel supply problems - water bug or crud in the tank that gets nicely stirred up. 

[Victor Vectis]

25 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I've been involved in serveral incidents where one NB has rescued another. For example when we rafted up https://nbsg.wordpress.com/2015/05/10/thames-tideway-may-10th/

That's the one I had in mind.

Thank you Simon.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Victor Vectis

[Tony Brooks]

20 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Quite a possibility they will be jammed across a bridge arch or rammed into some kind of floating pontoon or landing stage I would say!  Although I fortunately have no experience of it, it seems likely to me that once you are powerless and carried along by the tide, you would have very little control as to where you might end up.

That is where setting a dragging anchor might help. At least you could ferry glide to a degree.

 

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I also congratulate you on your research and preparation.

I do somewhat fear that ultimately some disaster by someone who is ill prepared or has an unsuitable boat will lead to a situation where narrow boat owners are no longer permitted out of Limehouse.

I can't help with your request unfortunately, but it does raise again questions I have always had in my mind.

Both times we have done it, (not for some years) circumstances have dictated we were the only narrow boat through that cycle of the lock.  It always felt like being with another boat would offer some reassurance.  However I do seriously wonder the extent to which another narrow boat could help in the case of mechanical difficulties.  About half your total speed over land is the tide, or at least it was in our case, and I assumed if you had tried to turn and go back the other way, you would be struggling to make much headway at all.  I'm not convinced you could easily get to another stricken boat and take it in tow.

Does anybody know of cases where one narrow boat has successfully rescued another, and how difficult was it?

I can certainly see another VHF boat might be better placed to summon help, if those on board a boat in difficulties were not easily able to do so, but beyond that I wonder how much extra security is offered by multiple narrow boats travelling together.

 

I too am concerned about one insurance company specifying that you had to do the tideway with another boat. My feeling is that unless you are very experienced on fast flowing waters trying to help another boat could easily end in disaster, especially when the bridges get close together with piers and trip boats.

I am fairly confident in my abilities but know the tideway is is regularly faster than the upper Thames in flood. I prefer to do it on my own because doing it with another may give both skippers a false impression of safety and neither probably knows how well prepared the other boat is or the other skippers experience. If I was with another boat and it got into trouble I think i would try to stand by and radio for the professionals, especially in below Battersea.

I am hoping to go the other way in mid July but sunrise and the tides are not perfect and it looks like a a lower than normal low tide at Limehouse so still thinking about it. Trouble is a teacher who especially wants to do it can only do weekends. I will be fitting washboards between the back of the cabin and the cruiser stern down-sheeting "just in case" although a large wash on the tidal Trent did not get into the boat.  Still thinking about a washboard across the front doors just in case we take water into the well deck. I would normally have the cratch cover down but know some of the crew will want to be there for sightseeing. I would not even be considering it if the boat had any hull side engine room vents as per some Lister installations and presumably Piper Boats

[Joe Bourke]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

I was once towed by another boat when shortly after coming out of Brentford and heading up to Teddington one of my fanbelts snapped and the engine started to overheat. Since we'd just left Brentford the tide wasn't running very fast and the other boat was easily able to come back to rescue me. I also know of another case where some friends lost power and were rescued by another narrowboat in Central London and towed all the way up to Brentford. I wasn't there myself so I don't know the exact details or how fast the tide was running.

Edit: Just reading the other posts which mention coming alongside and bresting up. Bresting up on a canal is fine, but I'm not sure if the butty-style canal approach is appropriate on fast and possibly lumpy tidal rivers? Towing sounds like a safer option to me. 

I don't think I would like to be a narrowboat towed by a narrowboat on the Tidal Trent, what with the bridges and sharp bends. A boat towing with more power maybe. What would you do on arrival at West Stockwith, Keadby, or Selby Lock? No, it worked and without issues. We could work on the stricken boat while going down river. We would do it the same way again if the situation arose. Different Rivers, different craft, different decisions maybe.

Remember also that in such situations you don't have pondering time. You are possibly dealing with panicky or frightened people. Your on a tidal river, with levels dropping.

 

[alan_fincher]

28 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 I would not even be considering it if the boat had any hull side engine room vents as per some Lister installations and presumably Piper Boats

And indeed quite a few Liverpool Boat's builds, even though most will have a water cooled engine............

[Joe Bourke]

Ah, do you remember the well publicised sinking of the narrowboat on the Aire & Calder Canal in 15ft waves ? Air-cooled engine with vents 3" above the water line.

[alan_fincher]

We have never tried it, but I have often considered whether I would be happy to take "Sickle" out of Limehouse......

She sits quite low in the water, and the large "patio" area is in fact very little different from an open hold, so all waves breaking over the bow are likely to deposit a fair amount of water into the boat.

I really can't judge how much it could be in a worst case scenario, but I'm not confident I'd just want to rely on a small electric bilge pump.

I think I would probably try and cover al least the front bit of the boards in some way, if we were ever to attempt it.

(Sickle looks like this)

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Joe Bourke said:

Ah, do you remember the well publicised sinking of the narrowboat on the Aire & Calder Canal in 15ft waves ? Air-cooled engine with vents 3" above the water line.

And then there was the (allegedly) overplated Springer (or was it a leaky stern gland) that sank on the Thames

 

[David Mack]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And then there was the (allegedly) overplated Springer (or was it a leaky stern gland) that sank on the Thames

 

The PLA put out a bulletin which said that after overplating, the bottom of the air vent in the hull side was 65mm above water level when the boat was unoccupied and 50mm below water level with 3 people on the back deck (as there were at the time). It was a disaster waiting to happen, tidal water or not.

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The PLA put out a bulletin which said that after overplating, the bottom of the air vent in the hull side was 65mm above water level when the boat was unoccupied and 50mm below water level with 3 people on the back deck (as there were at the time). It was a disaster waiting to happen, tidal water or not.

Thanks for the clarification.

Not doubting the PLA, but, 115mm drop in freeboard with just 3 people - that seems to be a huge amount.

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Scholar Gypsy]

PLA bulletin.

 

I think the point is that the stern went down and the bows went up?

[David Mack]

7 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

PLA bulletin.

 

I think the point is that the stern went down and the bows went up?

And when they lifted the deck boards and found the engine half submerged the other two crew members also went to the back of the boat, making matters worse.