240v on a cruiser ?

[W+T]

I have decided to fit the cruiser out with 240v. Not a great deal will be used from the mains. There is a twin socket in the cabin being one socket for the mains and one for the Inverter when i get around to getting one.

 

When using a genny is it ok to connect it to the 240v mains in socket ?  

 

Does this look ok or is it best to fit an RCD between the 240v in and the junction box ?

As there is only two sockets, the charger and socket in the cabin i myself think it will be ok as no big power will be consumed.    

 

Any thoughts please

 

Wayne

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, W+T said:

Any thoughts please

Our (previous) boat failed the BSS as it had no RCD

You don't appear to have any sort of fusing or protection.

[W+T]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Our (previous) boat failed the BSS as it had no RCD

You don't appear to have any sort of fusing or protection.

Fusing will be 13amp in the junction box and sockets.

I have been reading through the BSS but nothing yet to mention they should have an RCD.

[ditchcrawler]

I must say it looks a bit strange,normally the inverter would be connected to the main 240 volt wiring via the RCD and overload protection.

 

[W+T]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I must say it looks a bit strange,normally the inverter would be connected to the main 240 volt wiring via the RCD and overload protection.

 

But there is no inverter in the diagram. I dont plan to fit one as yet or at all.

[OldGoat]

20 minutes ago, W+T said:

I have decided to fit the cruiser out with 240v. Not a great deal will be used from the mains. There is a twin socket in the cabin being one socket for the mains and one for the Inverter when i get around to getting one.

 

When using a genny is it ok to connect it to the 240v mains in socket ?  

 

Does this look ok or is it best to fit an RCD between the 240v in and the junction box ?

As there is only two sockets, the charger and socket in the cabin i myself think it will be ok as no big power will be consumed.    

 

Any thoughts please

 

Wayne

Fitting some circuit protection is not dependent on how much power you're going to use.  It only takes a few thousandths of an amp to kill you.

Garage type consumer units are not expensive. You'll need some arrangement to switch the power input from domestic supply to the inverter.

[W+T]

48 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Fitting some circuit protection is not dependent on how much power you're going to use.  It only takes a few thousandths of an amp to kill you.

Garage type consumer units are not expensive. You'll need some arrangement to switch the power input from domestic supply to the inverter.

 

 

So does this look better, a RCD now in place. 

 

 

 

I have spotted these 30mA RCD protected sockets. 

More compact that a Garage RCD. 

This can/will go where the garage RCD will/would go ?

 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BG-Waterproof-Outdoor-13A-2Gang-Storm-Switched-Socket-Double-IP66-Outside-Use/122815014932?epid=13005977942&hash=item1c98586814:g:p~kAAOSwETJaD9tw

[ditchcrawler]

Its not acceptable, sorry. Remember you are dealing with something that can kill you 

[W+T]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its not acceptable, sorry. Remember you are dealing with something that can kill you 

Give me a clue then on what is no acceptable please. The set up or the socket/RCD. 

[Momac]

2 hours ago, W+T said:

When using a genny is it ok to connect it to the 240v mains in socket ?  

Yes. 

Mains sockets are essential equipment. When hooked up we use various mains devices ,  a mains lamp in the saloon ,a mains kettle  and a electric blanket , a dehumidifier , frost protection heaters , immersion heater in the calorifer  and of course the battery charger . Sure you are not underestimating requirements ?

As for the mains supply it has to go through a domestic consumer unit  but as I am not an electrician I will let others advise you.

 

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, W+T said:

Give me a clue then on what is no acceptable please. The set up or the socket/RCD. 

Shore plug to garage consumer unit, if you intend to fit an inverter include a change over switch . from the consumer unit to your sockets,

[W+T]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Yes. 

Mains sockets are essential equipment. When hooked up we use various mains devices ,  a mains lamp in the saloon ,a mains kettle  and a electric blanket , a dehumidifier , frost protection heaters , immersion heater in the calorifer  and of course the battery charger . Sure you are not underestimating requirements ?

As for the mains supply it has to go through a domestic consumer unit  but as I am not an electrician I will let others advise you.

 

 

I will only have one socket for the 240v mains just if needed. 

I cant think of anything else i will need/want on a cruiser. 

Yes i will be going with a garage RCD unit after talking with folk about the socket RCD`s, not mcuh cop them i have been told.. 

 

 

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Shore plug to garage consumer unit, if you intend to fit an inverter include a change over switch . from the consumer unit to your sockets,

 

As said above, I will be betting a garage RCD.

 

Now what is this  about an change over for an inverter. It will be powering its own single socket. If i read it correct the 12v is connected to the inverter then from there it gives out 240v to sockets or any other gubbins as in charger points etc if the inverter has the features to do so.

[OldGoat]

It's not worth cheapening it - you need to switch off the supply in an emergency and a proper overload device. An RCD is not an overload device...

[PD1964]

12 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

 

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by PD1964

[W+T]

New diagram with a garage RCD and the socket and charger in series.

 

[PD1964]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Our (previous) boat failed the BSS as it had no RCD

You don't appear to have any sort of fusing or protection.

I'm sure a RCD is not a requirement for a BSS which I was quite surprised by, it is advisable from the inspector that the owner fits one but it is not a failure if the boat is not fitted with one.

[Flyboy]

4 minutes ago, W+T said:

New diagram with a garage RCD and the socket and charger in series.

 

You will also need to Neutral / Earth bond the generator otherwise the RCD won't trip under a fault condition.  If you fit an inverter at a later date, then this will also need to be N/E bonded for the same reason. Make sure your generator is capable of being N/E bonded.

 

[Graham Davis]

Why not use something like this:

https://www.leisureoutlet.com/mains-hook-ups-and-inverters/electric-and-power/camping-and-outdoors/36740-maypole-230v-mobile-mains-unit?gclid=Cj0KCQiA7dHSBRDEARIsAJhAHwgN1hBjkkL0MItfMqExP7-mQ4hswn2tFsBbg7MEh0YnQhz2jvSpsiIaArADEALw_wcB

[W+T]

2 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

You will also need to Neutral / Earth bond the generator otherwise the RCD won't trip under a fault condition.  If you fit an inverter at a later date, then this will also need to be N/E bonded for the same reason. Make sure your generator is capable of being N/E bonded.

 

Granny will be a Home EU10i. I will look at if it is N/E bonded. 

Thanks. 

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, W+T said:

Granny will be a Home EU10i. I will look at if it is N/E bonded. 

Thanks. 

My Granny was never N/E bonded, she lived to 98.

[W+T]

2 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

Why not use something like this:

https://www.leisureoutlet.com/mains-hook-ups-and-inverters/electric-and-power/camping-and-outdoors/36740-maypole-230v-mobile-mains-unit?gclid=Cj0KCQiA7dHSBRDEARIsAJhAHwgN1hBjkkL0MItfMqExP7-mQ4hswn2tFsBbg7MEh0YnQhz2jvSpsiIaArADEALw_wcB

I looked at them a week or so ago. Are they better than one of them red sockets i linked to above though. 

15 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I'm sure a RCD is not a requirement for a BSS which I was quite surprised by, it is advisable from the inspector that the owner fits one but it is not a failure if the boat is not fitted with one.

I agree. I have yet to see where an RCD is a Bss requirement. More for safety. 

It seems OTT to have an RCD for a single socket and charger. 

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

My Granny was never N/E bonded, she lived to 98.

I am on my phone and predictive texts is a pain lol

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I'm sure a RCD is not a requirement for a BSS which I was quite surprised by, it is advisable from the inspector that the owner fits one but it is not a failure if the boat is not fitted with one.

The RCD requirement is an advisory only & that was my argument (and resulted in a complaint to the BSS office) - however, when you have paid the fee, the examiner states 'I'm failing the boat as it has no RCD, either get it fixed, or you'll have to pay another examiner for another examination'.

RCD obtained from Tool Station (about £5), fitted and the examiner called in later that day and issued the certificate.

3.5.1
Are all a.c. and d.c. fuses and miniature circuit‐breakers appropriately rated, complete and in
good condition?

NOTE ‐ examiners are encouraged to confirm during prior dealings with the owner, the location of the fuse
box/distribution board and any in‐line fuses, and to encourage their accessibility for examination. On d.c.
systems the lack of a fuse or MCB is not in itself a fail point – a.c systems are subject to a check for the
presence of a consumer unit or acceptable alternative, see 3.9.2.
NOTE – examiners are not to remove/unscrew fuses or fuse wire holders or remove miniature circuit
breakers. The checking action for fuses and miniature circuit breakers which cannot be seen without their
removal should be confined to the checks for completeness and condition.
Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide
appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

3.9.2

Do all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit?
Check that all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit
(also known as fuse/circuit‐breaker box or distribution board).

Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide
appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.
NOTE – for the purpose of this check residual current breakers with overcurrent protection (RCBOs) may be
considered an acceptable alternative to a consumer unit.
NOTE – in cases where the only power source is via a shore‐power lead, an acceptable alternative to a
consumer unit is a MCB or RCBO incorporated within the lead.

BSS = 'jobs for the boys'

 

On the last but one boat we purchased a condition of purchase was that it would have a full (new) BSSC as it had less than 2 years to run.

Certificate issued despite the fire extinguishers being 5 years past their 'dispose of date', which also meant that 3 years previously (when the same examiner did the BSS) they were 2 years out of date.

BSS = 'jobs for the boys'

 

A live aboard in 'our' marina has used the same BSS examiner for the last 2 surveys, he is not qualified to undertake the BSS for live aboards so tells them (and the others who use him) 

to go out for an hour or two, so that if they are not on board he doesn't know it is a live aboard boat.

The owner just wants the certificate and knowing the BSS is worthless just complies with his request.

 

BSS = 'jobs for the boys'

 

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

however, when you have paid the fee, the examiner states 'I'm failing the boat as it has no RCD, either get it fixed, or you'll have to pay another examiner for another examination'.

The moral of the story is never pay up front

[Flyboy]

18 minutes ago, W+T said:

It seems OTT to have an RCD for a single socket and charger. 

 

You would be foolish not to fit an RCD.  If your charger for example developed a L/E fault and you touched it, you will be toast. It's a small price to pay when you consider what you have already spent on your boat. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Flyboy

[Flyboy]

48 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I'm sure a RCD is not a requirement for a BSS which I was quite surprised by, it is advisable from the inspector that the owner fits one but it is not a failure if the boat is not fitted with one.

I think this implies that it is a requirement. Look at the bit at the bottom under RCD's       https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/electrical-safety/the-electrical-system/