Smoke on The water

[Jenwil]

And are the local residents all vegetarians and not adding to the greater overall pollution picture because if one has to do it all have to do it.

[Flyboy]

49 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Have you seen the " Power of tv advertising " advert on tv at present?  The one where the space craft lands and the bloke in his old motorhome apparently tears off down the road to the landing spot? Great advert innitt  and very convincing.

About as convincing as the advertising for Axiom propellers and Ecofans.

[Peter Thornton]

We need to be realistic on this one. We are not going to be allowed to carry on polluting in residential areas. Either by running dirty diesel engines or burning wood and coal.

One of three things will probably happen:

1. A complete ban on burning any fuel but smokeless, anywhere.

2. A ban on burning fuel and running engines in residential areas.

3. A ban on burning fuel and running engines in areas where metered power is available

I think we need to be working towards 3.

[mrsmelly]

26 minutes ago, Peter Thornton said:

We need to be realistic on this one. We are not going to be allowed to carry on polluting in residential areas. Either by running dirty diesel engines or burning wood and coal.

One of three things will probably happen:

1. A complete ban on burning any fuel but smokeless, anywhere.

2. A ban on burning fuel and running engines in residential areas.

3. A ban on burning fuel and running engines in areas where metered power is available

I think we need to be working towards 3.

There are many problems here. Whilst I would agree your ideal of 3 would indeed be good. However many people are now fitting wood burning stoves in their houses in residential areas its the " In thing " at the moment so it will be hard to implement that one. There are regs for houses re fitting them but they still belch smoke out. There are very few in fact very very few hook up points canalside or river side for passing boaters and although I only ever burn smokeless fuel it still smokes like hell for quite a while when its just been stoked up. Boats will always need to generate electricity and whilst I do and always have done adhere stringently to the 8 till 8 timing the only way not to run some sort of fossil fuel device to charge batteries is to have no electricity or move into a house. I have absolutely zero intention of having no electricity and even less of the retrograde step of moving back into a house. I find most boaters are very good at not shall we say rocking the boat with their actions but of course the odd one or two will always come to the fore just as the odd few do that live on land. In my soon to be 30 years living aboard I have heard that stoves and charging will be stopped soon and I am still waiting as its a very hard one to implement.

[MtB]

Electricity on a boat is not necessary. I have gas lamps for lighting and they work beautifully. 

There is even a gas fired laptop computer in development apparently, for people like us. 

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, Flyboy said:

This is why I'm 100% convinced the moon landings did happen.

About 15 years ago I was privileged to meet John Young who was the commander of Apollo 16 when he gave a very detailed talk a my flying club. He walked on the moon in 1972.  His talk was so detailed and backed up by photographs/slides that I've never seen in the public domain before. 

At the end of his 2 hour talk I cornered him in the bar and asked for his autograph which he refused. He apologised saying that NASA astronauts were not allowed to give autographs. After a short chat he shook my hand and chatted to someone else.  What struck me was that he was quite slight in stature and had a weak handshake. He came over as a very nice ordinary guy and not a super hero macho man I was expecting.

Perhaps he was an actor and it was all NASA propaganda. I was completely convinced and have never doubted that the moon landings took place.

I think that had you been there even you would have been convinced.

 

As for meeting interesting people. I have met many  but my faveourite and most interesting and unique was when Millvina Dean came to my pub for a pre arranged afternoon lunch. She has died since and no one now can ever speak to anyone such as her. Very quiet lady with no recollection of the most publicised event in recent history that she was a part of. Now that was an interesting couple of hours.

[pearley]

The photo in the original post actually shows the visitor moorings in Cambridge. The nearest properties there are ultimately the bank and then across a quite wide road. Many of the properties are offices though there are likely to be people living on the upper floors. 

The majority of the permanent moorings on the Cam are alongside the parks often with boathouse opposite. The problem area, which is probably what is being referred to, is a short stretch, I think it's called Riverside, of about 800 yards where housing is only separated from the moorings by a narrow road. This part also has the most decrepit boats moored there and has been subject to complaint before. 

On some of the other points about emissions that have been raised, a friend of mine in Stone took advantage of an offer by his electricity supplier of a free charging point. It is fitted in his garage so not on show. He doesn't have an electric car and I don't see him getting one in the near future. 

Yes, we could certainly use more electricity hook ups canal side and I'm told by Damien that CRT have a committee looking into this. If you have strong views then write to them and did press them. 

However, we are still only paying lip service to emissions. There still too many old cars on the road, we still allow market traders to use cheap generators outside their stalls (the size of the diesel generators powering the Birmingham Christmas Market puts mine in the shade) so there any research into producing even less moke less fuel, etc. 

Whilst I believe the moon landings did take place, I have also seen 'Capricorn One'. 

[WotEver]

23 minutes ago, pearley said:

Whilst I believe the moon landings did take place, I have also seen 'Capricorn One'. 

What a lot of folk don’t appreciate today is how crappy visual special effects were back in the late sixties. We were still in the era of Ray Harryhausen’s Argonauts back then. Capricorn One actually proves how it couldn’t have been faked if you watch it closely. 

[nb Innisfree]

21 hours ago, Detling said:

It doesn't matter how many charging points for cars they put in, where are they going to get the electricity from, we have been within 2% of the UK's total power generation capability on several occasions this year. Also most towns and housing area's are wired with an expectation of 3-4 kilowatts per household, double that to allow for charging of 2 cars and we have to dig up the roads to put in bigger wires.

Average house uses approx 8kwh per 24hrs, car doing average mileage of 35 - 40 miles per day would need 12- 14 kwh per 24 hrs, this could be supplied overnght at off-eak times. Also lampost charging points are being intalled in some places for cars without access to house power. Some windfarms are already being paid to shut down due to excess generation.

The car is dead - long live the car. 

[peterboat]

9 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Average house uses approx 8kwh per 24hrs, car doing average mileage of 35 - 40 miles per day would need 12- 14 kwh per 24 hrs, this could be supplied overnght at off-eak times. Also lampost charging points are being intalled in some places for cars without access to house power. Some windfarms are already being paid to shut down due to excess generation.

The car is dead - long live the car. 

You know this is right and I know it is right but the dinosaurs out there dont believe that one day their boat like mine will have an electric motor. I know people that say they will stockpile diesel so that it wont effect them, but the reality is wind farms do stand idle and as we gradually change over to electric they wont, and more and more of them will be built as the changeover happens. I know it wont be an overnight thing and so do you however Trex is baying for diesel

[MtB]

25 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Average house uses approx 8kwh per 24hrs,

 

That's interesting. How much does the average liveaboard boat use? Not much different I bet.

How many KwHrs in a bag of smokeless fuel and in a litre of diesel?

[MtB]

Just wondering, given the other thread about creating more moorings for 'low impact' liveaboard boats. I still suspect 'low impact' is the last thing liveaboard boats are, compared to modern well insulated houses!

[Jess--]

37 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Average house uses approx 8kwh per 24hrs, car doing average mileage of 35 - 40 miles per day would need 12- 14 kwh per 24 hrs, this could be supplied overnght at off-eak times. Also lampost charging points are being intalled in some places for cars without access to house power. Some windfarms are already being paid to shut down due to excess generation.

The car is dead - long live the car. 

if the average house uses approx 8kwh and the average car will need 12kwh to charge giving a total of 20kwh required that is already an extra 150% electricity requirements, then when you allow for the fact that the average household (and presumably average house) has 1.3 cars you are up to the average house needing 23.6kwh (almost an extra 200% electricity demand)

I suspect that off-peak will cease to exist as we know it.

edited to add....

lamp post charging is a nice idea until you imagine a road with terraced houses, maybe a lamp post every 100 feet with 6 cars trying to charge from each post.

sadly I don't think the infrastructure for electricity supply in the uk will handle the massive increase in demand for power that a rapid change from internal combustion to electric would require

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Jess--

[nb Innisfree]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That's interesting. How much does the average liveaboard boat use? Not much different I bet.

How many KwHrs in a bag of smokeless fuel and in a litre of diesel?

Full time living aboard on a well equipped narrowboat we used roughly between 1.5 and 2.5 Kwh so about 25% of a house. 

Can't remember the output from diesel and solid fuel but it's quite high. But of course converting that to electricity becomes very inefficient. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

Full time living aboard on a well equipped narrowboat we used roughly between 1.5 and 2.5 Kwh so about 25% of a house. 

Can't remember the output from diesel and solid fuel but it's quite high. But of course converting that to electricity becomes very inefficient. 

 

Indeed. 

I use about a 25kg bag of coal every three days and two litres of diesel a day.

Was wondering if someone would look up the energy this represents as I'm to lazy to do it myself

[nb Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

if the average house uses approx 8kwh and the average car will need 12kwh to charge giving a total of 20kwh required that is already an extra 150% electricity requirements, then when you allow for the fact that the average household (and presumably average house) has 1.3 cars you are up to the average house needing 23.6kwh (almost an extra 200% electricity demand)

I suspect that off-peak will cease to exist as we know it.

 

My prediction is that houses will have their own battery to smooth out demand, already being implemented, Tesla have launched their Powerwall and Nissan are doing similar but using EV batteries that have fallen below 75% (ish) capacity but still useful for domestic use. 

It's all doable. 

[mrsmelly]

41 minutes ago, peterboat said:

You know this is right and I know it is right but the dinosaurs out there dont believe that one day their boat like mine will have an electric motor. I know people that say they will stockpile diesel so that it wont effect them, but the reality is wind farms do stand idle and as we gradually change over to electric they wont, and more and more of them will be built as the changeover happens. I know it wont be an overnight thing and so do you however Trex is baying for diesel

There needs to be MASSIVE expenditure infrastructure wise to even start to charge all these electric motored cars /boats /aeroplanes? Do you realy believe its going to happen in your lifetime?. where do the many thousands of off grid people charge their stuff up? More and more people now are adopting an alternative lifestyle rather than a 30/40 years mortgage and the numbers will continue to grow. There has to be a way of sorting all those problems before implementation.  Electric motors have " No Soul " how do we replace the awesome burble of a V8 petrol? we at present are realising though its taken too many people too long that diesel engines in cars isn't the way forward do you think we need to have some way of replicating the sound of say a TVR in our clinical electric vehicles

[nb Innisfree]

16 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

edited to add....

lamp post charging is a nice idea until you imagine a road with terraced houses, maybe a lamp post every 100 feet with 6 cars trying to charge from each post.

sadly I don't think the infrastructure for electricity supply in the uk will handle the massive increase in demand for power that a rapid change from internal combustion to electric would require

 

Extra charge points could be added between lamposts, the cables are ducted I believe so could easily replaced with heftier ones. Shell has already acknowledged the inevitability of a move away from IC powered cars by installing charge points at their petrol stations (another oil producer is following suit, can't recall which one) 

Installing bankside charge points for boats is a relatively minor operation once the decision is made. 

Things are coming along at a rapid pace

 

[Detling]

53 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Average house uses approx 8kwh per 24hrs, car doing average mileage of 35 - 40 miles per day would need 12- 14 kwh per 24 hrs, this could be supplied overnght at off-eak times. Also lampost charging points are being intalled in some places for cars without access to house power. Some windfarms are already being paid to shut down due to excess generation.

The car is dead - long live the car. 

So 8kwh for house +  (2 x 13) kwh for two cars = 34kwh per day so over 4 times what the wiring from the grid to the housing area is designed to carry.  Most street lights are on a single 16 amp circuit for the street, big main roads sometimes have a 16 amp 3 phase circuit, so only 1 or 2 cars can cahrge at once not quite the nose to tail parking outside terraced houses. We have had days this year with less than 5% of the installed 10 gigawatts available as there is no wind.

Now if cars had exchangeable battery packs then many of these problems could be addressed, as would long journeys away from your charger. You could have two batteries per car one slowly charging when the grid can supply the power the other in use, you can swap at service points on your journey, rather than spend hours waiting for the charge. Of course unless government force it every manufacturer would have their own standard, think Apple and older phone chargers, and not AA batteries the equivalent of which is required.

[nb Innisfree]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

There needs to be MASSIVE expenditure infrastructure wise to even start to charge all these electric motored cars /boats /aeroplanes? Do you realy believe its going to happen in your lifetime?. where do the many thousands of off grid people charge their stuff up? More and more people now are adopting an alternative lifestyle rather than a 30/40 years mortgage and the numbers will continue to grow. There has to be a way of sorting all those problems before implementation.  Electric motors have " No Soul " how do we replace the awesome burble of a V8 petrol? we at present are realising though its taken too many people too long that diesel engines in cars isn't the way forward do you think we need to have some way of replicating the sound of say a TVR in our clinical electric vehicles

I suspect that the far superior performance of electric drive combined with simplicity of engineering will satisfy petrol heads. 

Some IC cars already engineer sound into the body shell. 

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

There needs to be MASSIVE expenditure infrastructure wise to even start to charge all these electric motored cars /boats /aeroplanes? Do you realy believe its going to happen in your lifetime?. where do the many thousands of off grid people charge their stuff up? More and more people now are adopting an alternative lifestyle rather than a 30/40 years mortgage and the numbers will continue to grow. There has to be a way of sorting all those problems before implementation.  Electric motors have " No Soul " how do we replace the awesome burble of a V8 petrol? we at present are realising though its taken too many people too long that diesel engines in cars isn't the way forward do you think we need to have some way of replicating the sound of say a TVR in our clinical electric vehicles

Well Trex it happens as cables get replaced with bigger and better ones, when a wind turbine appears in a field near you as is already happening, it isnt an overnight thing it takes years and who cares if that V8 burble has gone? I have done that and got the T shirt, drive a powerful electric car and you will understand real power it is awesome

3 minutes ago, Detling said:

So 8kwh for house +  (2 x 13) kwh for two cars = 34kwh per day so over 4 times what the wiring from the grid to the housing area is designed to carry.  Most street lights are on a single 16 amp circuit for the street, big main roads sometimes have a 16 amp 3 phase circuit, so only 1 or 2 cars can cahrge at once not quite the nose to tail parking outside terraced houses. We have had days this year with less than 5% of the installed 10 gigawatts available as there is no wind.

Now if cars had exchangeable battery packs then many of these problems could be addressed, as would long journeys away from your charger. You could have two batteries per car one slowly charging when the grid can supply the power the other in use, you can swap at service points on your journey, rather than spend hours waiting for the charge. Of course unless government force it every manufacturer would have their own standard, think Apple and older phone chargers, and not AA batteries the equivalent of which is required.

Fast chargers take minutes not hours

[nb Innisfree]

2 minutes ago, Detling said:

So 8kwh for house +  (2 x 13) kwh for two cars = 34kwh per day so over 4 times what the wiring from the grid to the housing area is designed to carry.  Most street lights are on a single 16 amp circuit for the street, big main roads sometimes have a 16 amp 3 phase circuit, so only 1 or 2 cars can cahrge at once not quite the nose to tail parking outside terraced houses. We have had days this year with less than 5% of the installed 10 gigawatts available as there is no wind.

Now if cars had exchangeable battery packs then many of these problems could be addressed, as would long journeys away from your charger. You could have two batteries per car one slowly charging when the grid can supply the power the other in use, you can swap at service points on your journey, rather than spend hours waiting for the charge. Of course unless government force it every manufacturer would have their own standard, think Apple and older phone chargers, and not AA batteries the equivalent of which is required.

Tesla already have a rapid battery swap system for their cars, over twice as fast as filling with petrol/diesel, introduced in 2012 but suspended due to lack of demand. Could easily be resurrected by an enterprising business. 

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Well Trex it happens as cables get replaced with bigger and better ones, when a wind turbine appears in a field near you as is already happening, it isnt an overnight thing it takes years and who cares if that V8 burble has gone? I have done that and got the T shirt, drive a powerful electric car and you will understand real power it is awesome

Peter old sport whats the point of having an awesome electric motor and having to stop for two hours minimum every 80 miles? I did 400 miles on boxing day and stopped for 3 minutes at a petrol pump. When do you see electric storage getting to that standard? My car cost me £1250 quid 22k miles ago and its still worth £1250 quid who is going to supply all these replacement leccy cars?

5 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

Tesla already have a rapid battery swap system for their cars, over twice as fast as filling with petrol/diesel, introduced in 2012 but suspended due to lack of demand. Could easily be resurrected by an enterprising business. 

How much more than £ 1250 will the Tesla cost me if I nip to the car shop and buy one later today?

[nb Innisfree]

1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

Tesla already have a rapid battery swap system for their cars, over twice as fast as filling with petrol/diesel, introduced in 2012 but suspended due to lack of demand. Could easily be resurrected by an enterprising business. 

Already there are  proposals to use EV cars to help the grid out. 

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Peter old sport whats the point of having an awesome electric motor and having to stop for two hours minimum every 80 miles? I did 400 miles on boxing day and stopped for 3 minutes at a petrol pump. When do you see electric storage getting to that standard? My car cost me £1250 quid 22k miles ago and its still worth £1250 quid who is going to supply all these replacement leccy cars?

How much more than £ 1250 will the Tesla cost me if I nip to the car shop and buy one later today?

So you can buy a late model supercar for £1250?

[Detling]

1 minute ago, nb Innisfree said:

Tesla already have a rapid battery swap system for their cars, over twice as fast as filling with petrol/diesel, introduced in 2012 but suspended due to lack of demand. Could easily be resurrected by an enterprising business. 

Yep but it wont fit a Honda or a Nissan car just my point, no one is going to run a swap service point with 3000 different batteries one for each car/manufacturer.

 

Also helping the grid out may sound good but once my car is charged no one is going to get that power just in case I can't get to work etc.