Boat dimensions

[captain flint]

I'm looking at a boat with a wheelhouse. A rather narrow Dutch Barge. I think it's dimensions would be OK(ish), and I've looked around for answers, but am posting here as you're a helpful and opinionated lot, and I'd like to hear what anyone who feels like respondong has to say. It's the wheelhouse (non collapsible) and air draft I'm thinking about. 

Overall: 59'x9'3" (18mx2.8m).
Draft: 3'4" (1m)
Air draft: 7'9" (2m35)

Of course, it depends where I want to go. I'll be continuous cruising in teh southeast, but not restricted - I hope - to London, although that would be my base. The Regents Canal and Hertford Canal, and most - but not all - of the Lee should be OK. Stort, not so much.

All in all, I think it just won't work. Harrow Road bridge 3 is listed as 7'4"/2.23m

I have probably just answered my own question, haven't I. And that's what made me post originally - hence the title. But I'd still be interested to hear youer thoughts. What follows is more genneral about choosing a boat. in relation to this one and one simliar, and then more geerally. Feel free to read on - or not!

The boat is in Holland and would need a calorifier fitted, a currently toilet-only-heads converted to a wet room, and stove and back boiler + rads fitted. Plus, of course, bringing over here, whether by low loader or water. Also I haven't yet heard back from the brokers yet what "partial insulation" means. I can see how it stacks up as not a great choice, but I like it (not to everyone's taste I know), so if I can get it for a price that would leave me with enough in the bank to do those things, I might be interested. Seems a long shot, in terms of the figures, though.

There's a similar boat for sale in France, with air draft of 2.2 metres, which would go under Harrow Road bridge 3... This one is, I'm going to say, "less attractive", I think others would say "even uglier".

It's better set up in terms of cruising, by a very long way, shorter, which is possibly a good thing considering her width and the busy waterways where I would want to be taking her. I don't think it's as classy, myself, but one thing I realise is I don't have the money for a boat that is perfect in every way, so I need to be realistic and make compromises when I need to.

I'm still smarting from the deal for the 45x9ft wide beam falling through. It was perfect and I cannot believe the vendor got the hump so quick he refused to eve discuss solutions, but there we go.

A narrow boat might seem the obvious solution for me, but whilst I've lived on one before, and loved it, I also know how even a couple of extra foot width is a wonderful thing if it is going to be your home.

[alan_fincher]

Quite apart from air draft, don't underestimate the difficulties of trying to navigate a boat with a draft under water of 1 metre on the canals of the South East and London area.

Our ex working boats both draw closer to 0.9 metres, and can be considerably hard work when levels are significantly down.

The difference between 0.9 metres and 1 metre may not sound a lot, but if a 0.9 metre draft boat can be coaxed through debris infested bridge holes, or over lock cills in pounds that are half a metre down in level, I can almost guarantee that a boat that is a further 10 cms into the water will probably get totally stuck.

I would not these days want to work a boat with a full 1 metre draft on some bits of those waterways.

Is Harrow Road bridge really the lowest you would encounter?  I don't recall it as unusually bad.

On the air draft you quote, the Stort would be a no hoper, (anything much over 2 metres can be problematic, I would say), and my memory is there a bridges you would fail on the upper reaches of the Lee as well, but have to admit it is several years since we were last up there.

[captain flint]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

the Stort would be a no hoper, (anything much over 2 metres can be problematic, I would say), and my memory is there a bridges you would fail on the upper reaches of the Lee as well, but have to admit it is several years since we were last up there.

I believe you are right about that, yes.

Interesting comments re draft - I had wondered, although I had thought that 1m or less should be OK, but you sound like you know what you're talking about!

Grrr I am so cross the deal went bad on the boat I want, with it's sensible dimensios, and that is still unsold and unwanted by anyone except me it seems. Nothing I can do abou that now, the vendor refuses to talk to me (he has never spoken to me), and got fed up with my wanting proof of VAT among other things, or a properly signed declaration. I know, I know, many aren't bothered about that stuff, but I'm new to the inland waterways, andit seems stupid enough to put the last of my savings into a boat at all (but I'm going to), let alone doing it without the paperwork. It wasn't a cheap one.  

Sorry, just stuck a little extra moan on the end there. No use crying over water under the bridge, or something

[David Mack]

5 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Quite apart from air draft, don't underestimate the difficulties of trying to navigate a boat with a draft under water of 1 metre on the canals of the South East and London area.

Our ex working boats both draw closer to 0.9 metres, and can be considerably hard work when levels are significantly down.

The difference between 0.9 metres and 1 metre may not sound a lot, but if a 0.9 metre draft boat can be coaxed through debris infested bridge holes, or over lock cills in pounds that are half a metre down in level, I can almost guarantee that a boat that is a further 10 cms into the water will probably get totally stuck.

I would not these days want to work a boat with a full 1 metre draft on some bits of those waterways.

Is Harrow Road bridge really the lowest you would encounter?  I don't recall it as unusually bad.

On the air draft you quote, the Stort would be a no hoper, (anything much over 2 metres can be problematic, I would say), and my memory is there a bridges you would fail on the upper reaches of the Lee as well, but have to admit it is several years since we were last up there.

There are lots of ex-working narrow boats about drawing around 3 ft, so as Alan says, at that draft you may have occasional problems, but you will get through.  Any deeper and you are one of the few and you will be very much taking your chances on what is or is not possible.

Not sure what the lowest bridge on the Lee and Stort is, but some years ago Fulbourne came to grief at Roydon railway bridge on the Stort. If the river is even slightly up, an unloaded large Woolwich with full size cratch will not fit underneath! 

[Robbo]

I wouldn’t trust the dimensions given as they more likely given by the owner do more likely approx, old and never confirmed.   Both boats look like they could have their wheelhouse modified to be collapsible and still keep the lines.

[Alan de Enfield]

10 hours ago, captain flint said:

Nothing I can do abou that now, the vendor refuses to talk to me (he has never spoken to me),

 

In which case can you not contact him using another name (or use a mate as a proxy) and start negotiations as a ’new buyer’?

If you have now decided the boat is ‘the one’ and you are no longer so concerned about the paperwork – Think “how can I buy this boat?” - Think outside the box!

[Bee]

They both look very pretty but for UK use they could be full of problems. No BSS, loos discharging to the canal (?) and simply too deep draughted to be readily usable quite apart from really only fitting the Thames up to Oxford, the GU with a struggle and the London canals. I don't really know the Lee and Stort but finding places to put a boat bigger than a narrowboat is never easy and moorings in the SE are like hens teeth. However, our boat, 10m x 3.4 with collapsible wheelhouse and 0.8m draught has been up and down the Severn, Avon, K & A. Wey and GU and Regents so it is possible but as for mooring in London, too much bother.

[Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Bee said:

. However, our boat, 10m x 3.4 with collapsible wheelhouse and 0.8m draught has been up and down the Severn, Avon, K & A. Wey and GU and Regents so it is possible but as for mooring in London, too much bother.

Please don't post pictures of pure porn, it's a family site    

Got any more?

[Jess--]

17 minutes ago, Bee said:

Your boat looks odd to me, probably it's because so many I see have the wheelhouse towards the stern and yours being nearer the bow.

nice boat but I can't get past the "someone put the cabin on backwards" impression that I get after being used to seeing the layout below.

[cereal tiller]

8 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

Your boat looks odd to me, probably it's because so many I see have the wheelhouse towards the stern and yours being nearer the bow.

nice boat but I can't get past the "someone put the cabin on backwards" impression that I get after being used to seeing the layout below.

The Boat in the First link is described as having a Swimming Pool but no Picture of one ,also States 'Sleeps 7' ,One Elderly Paloma Water Heater in the Pics. must have it's Work cut out for it at Shower/Bath time!

[David Schweizer]

7 hours ago, David Mack said:

There are lots of ex-working narrow boats about drawing around 3 ft, so as Alan says, at that draft you may have occasional problems, but you will get through.  Any deeper and you are one of the few and you will be very much taking your chances on what is or is not possible.

Not sure what the lowest bridge on the Lee and Stort is, but some years ago Fulbourne came to grief at Roydon railway bridge on the Stort. If the river is even slightly up, an unloaded large Woolwich with full size cratch will not fit underneath! 

Ex working boats witth low revving engines and huge props  seem to be able to cope with shallow canals far better that a modern deep draughted boat with a moderrn hig revving engine and small prop. Our old boat had a draught of 33" underway, with a BMC 1.5 engine driving a 17" prop. We certainly found some canals very hard work,

[Bee]

Hi Jess,

Its because its based on a tug. It is a replica and the wheelhouse could have been at the back but after many sketches and drawings we decided to stick with the wheelhouse and small cabin at the front and follow the original Euroship tug kit for the majority of the boat and put the 'saloon' at the back, it was also cheaper than re designing the whole thing, so far as squeezing the loo, bed, galley, engine in it works better like that as well, its actually a wee bit less than 10m so every cm really mattered.

[Robbo]

16 minutes ago, Bee said:

Hi Jess,

Its because its based on a tug. It is a replica and the wheelhouse could have been at the back but after many sketches and drawings we decided to stick with the wheelhouse and small cabin at the front and follow the original Euroship tug kit for the majority of the boat and put the 'saloon' at the back, it was also cheaper than re designing the whole thing, so far as squeezing the loo, bed, galley, engine in it works better like that as well, its actually a wee bit less than 10m so every cm really mattered.

Do you have any interior photos / plans?  Refitting my own boat so I'm been nosy 

[Dav and Pen]

Both of the small barges have fixed wheelhouses so very limited use in south of England. Big difference in price and as boats in France are usually more expensive a bit odd especially considering who the broker is, I would keep clear.

[captain flint]

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

In which case can you not contact him using another name (or use a mate as a proxy) and start negotiations as a ’new buyer’?

If you have now decided the boat is ‘the one’ and you are no longer so concerned about the paperwork – Think “how can I buy this boat?” - Think outside the box!

Is that an offer, Alan? ;-)

I have been thinking about that, yes. You said before, in the other thread, if it's a boat you like, don't give  up on it, and it got me thinking... earlier this year, I wanted to buy a chair off ebay (!), but the vendor refused to use couriers, and I did something similar, got someone to buy on my behalf, the vendor didn't know it was me.

So, yes, that's in my thoughts, entirely.

Right now there's no sign of the boat on the market, but of course I do know where she lies and that he wants to sell.

In terms of documents, it's not so much that I am now willing to buy with none whatsoever -  I stiill wouldn't settle for what was offered last time, effectively just his name scrawled on a scrap of paper, and I know the boat yard doesn't have/doesn't want to find their old invoices...

But last time round, he was drawing irritated deadlines for completion, while I asked for more documents, and the way it was left, I think, was that either the invoices needed finding, or he needed to sign a notarised declaration, or bust. 

Whereas now I realise there might be some other less "lawyerish" ways of having some paperwork that would give me some security, such as a post-dated builder's certficate and invoice ("£1 and all considerations) plus insurance papers with the owner's name on.

But I'm wondering if asking even for simple stuff like that, off a very grumpy and impatient seeming narrow-boat-sale-on-a-handshake kind of guy might just end up like it did last time!. Depends how much he wants to sell the boat I guess, and only one way to find out...

If it was you , would you settle for insurance or builders' certficate& invoice, or would you prefer insurance and certficate and invoice?

It's a 50 grand boat, and it would be the last of my savings, really, so, although I know there are many on the inland waterways who are more casual, I personally, cynical and cuatious person that I am, do not have the cojones* to spend that kind of money without some documentation.

*Nor do I want them, to be honest, the phrase "brave as two short planks" springs to mind! But like I said, I'm cycnical, and, I increasinglly realise, maybe naive about inland waterways culture of deals - which is not to say I'm about to compromise that much...Still can't believe how easy it was to sell my flat for a price I was happy with, and buy one for a price I was happy with, earlier in the year. All part of the plan to move onto a boat, but it's that bit which has proved the most challenging!!

[captain flint]

16 hours ago, David Mack said:

Any deeper and you are one of the few and you will be very much taking your chances on what is or is not possible.

3 3/8 of an inch more than three feet.

But Alan actually said his draw 2' 11.5" (forgive the imperial/metric mash up), and his point was that he thought anything over that woulod be a problem.

Hard to believe those four inches would make that much difference, when we're talking just over 3 feet, but not hard to believe how it could make a difference if indeed it could. It could be the difference between scraping over something, and getting stuck on it. Not exactly a difficult concept! And I would be foolish, in my lack of experience, not to take his word for it, I guess!

4 hours ago, Dav and Pen said:

Both of the small barges have fixed wheelhouses so very limited use in south of England. Big difference in price and as boats in France are usually more expensive a bit odd especially considering who the broker is, I would keep clear.

Thanks for the heads up. I know nothing about that French Brokerage. I was more interested in the one in Holland, anyway - the one in France seemed more "sensible" and ready for living on, but didn't have the same look of having been looked after and cared for as the dutch one.

I could do plenty in the SE on it in terms of air draft, and if I could get someone to convert the wheelhouse to collapsible (I wonder how much that would cost?), that problem could be solved entirely.

However, many people are pointing out that while a 1 metre draft is only a small amount deeper than is a good idea, it takes it into the "bad idea" terrritory, and there's not much I can do about that. Maybe something involving filling the hull with helium and fitting out-riggers for stability? haha.

[alan_fincher]

36 minutes ago, captain flint said:

Hard to believe those four inches would make that much difference, when we're talking just over 3 feet, but not hard to believe how it could make a difference if indeed it could. It could be the difference between scraping over something, and getting stuck on it. Not exactly a difficult concept! And I would be foolish, in my lack of experience, not to take his word for it, I guess!

We have this year on multiple occasions done bits of the Grand Union where in excess of half a metre was missing from the level in some pounds.

At that point a boat on round about a 0.9 metre draught can be starting to rub on the shallower lock cills, but will generally scrape over them.

With an extra 10 cms of draft in my view it probably would not.

[captain flint]

13 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

With an extra 10 cms of draft in my view it probably would not.

Got it - like I said, seems kind of surprising to me, but that'll be because I know nothing! So I really appreciate your input here, it's clearly based on considerably experience, and the way you explain it means although it might surprise me, it's not exactly difficult to follow. If as you say, you're just scraping with 90cm then the extra 10 would clearly be an issue.

I expect it's something that could be dealt with/worked around, but far from ideal, and as a beginner, I think I'll stick to something more suited to the waters I'm going to be on, a no brainer, even if not what I expected to hear.

I'm not a massive user of forums in general, but I'm on a few about various subjects- all I can say is this one is easily the one I like best, so much usefl info, plus some of ths stories getting swapped are really interesting too.

Thanks!

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, captain flint said:

If it was you , would you settle for insurance or builders' certficate& invoice, or would you prefer insurance and certficate and invoice?

 

As previously mentioned, the boat I bought last year was a £250,000 boat that I negotiated down to £160,000 due to a ‘shortage’ of documentation. By various means the documentation was subsequently obtained.

You may have previously supplied this – but – what year is the boat ?

My order of preference for documentation :

1. RCD documentation if build was post 1998

2. Builders Original Invoice showing VAT paid.

3. Proof of ownership documents with sellers name & address stated (Insurance, licence, BSS etc) Bill of sale from purchase of boat.

4. Invoices for parts, servicing, repairs etc.

If it is the boat I want and the price is within the ‘market price’ band I would not walk away if no paperwork was available.

At the end of the day, the informal way that the Inland Waterways operates means that little credence / value is placed on ‘paperwork’ and you will be unlikely to be ‘caught-out’ as the risks are very low.

[captain flint]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You may have previously supplied this – but – what year is the boat ?

2009

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

1. RCD documentation if build was post 1998

Present and correct, and with vendor's name on

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

1. Builders Original Invoice showing VAT paid.

This was the problem - not available. Boat is still on the yard where it was built, but even though I offered to pay at a rate they could set for expenses and wages for someone to go dig the old invoice out of storage, they said no.

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

1. Proof of ownership documents with sellers name & address stated (Insurance, licence, BSS etc) Bill of sale from purchase of boat.

Nothing. Valid BSS with the examiner's name on in a couple of places (T. Tucker), but no other names. Bill of sale for my purchase of the boat offered by vendor, but he bought it new, so no bill of sale, and no builder's invoice. Asked for, but was not given, insurance docs

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

1. Invoices for parts, servicing, repairs etc.

I have a few of these with the vendor's name on.

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

At the end of the day, the informal way that the Inland Waterways operates means that little credence / value is placed on ‘paperwork’ and you will be unlikely to be ‘caught-out’ as the risks are very low.

My worry is not the IW, it's lawyers/banks - seems a slim chance, but the two things that spring to mind are unpaid finance/reposession (which could account for the fact all ownership papers are unavailable - they might be held by a finance house), or it's part of a divorce setllement.

Not terribly likely, but as a poker player (albeit not a very good one), I know you don't just worry about the odds in isolation - they may be slim, but if the stakes are high enough, then you still gotta think twice, and for me I'd be betting the house, basically!

I will get in touch with a lawyer I know to ask if a post dated builder's certificate and invoice plus insurance would be enough to afford at least some protection in the event of stuff like that.

I'm pretty relaxed about IW or the prospect of issues with re-selling the boat that a lack of papers might cause - although I might feel differently in future, when trying to sell, who knows. I just don't want to find someone dirsputes my ownership.

I do feel a bit out of my depth, if I'm honest, but that's not to say I'm not happy struggling to understand more, and will go for it if I feel I can, sensibly.

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, captain flint said:

2009

Present and correct, and with vendor's name on

This was the problem - not available. Boat is still on the yard where it was built, but even though I offered to pay at a rate they could set for expenses and wages for someone to go dig the old invoice out of storage, they said no.

Nothing. Valid BSS with the examiner's name on in a couple of places (T. Tucker), but no other names. Bill of sale for my purchase of the boat offered by vendor, but he bought it new, so no bill of sale, and no builder's invoice. Asked for, but was not given, insurance docs

I have a few of these with the vendor's name on.

My worry is not the IW, it's lawyers/banks - seems a slim chance, but the two things that spring to mind are unpaid finance/reposession (which could account for the fact all ownership papers are unavailable - they might be held by a finance house), or it's part of a divorce setllement.

Not terribly likely, but as a poker player (albeit not a very good one), I know you don't just worry about the odds in isolation - they may be slim, but if the stakes are high enough, then you still gotta think twice, and for me I'd be betting the house, basically!

I will get in touch with a lawyer I know to ask if a post dated builder's certificate and invoice plus insurance would be enough to afford at least some protection in the event of stuff like that.

I'm pretty relaxed about IW or the prospect of issues with re-selling the boat that a lack of papers might cause - although I might feel differently in future, when trying to sell, who knows. I just don't want to find someone dirsputes my ownership.

I do feel a bit out of my depth, if I'm honest, but that's not to say I'm not happy struggling to understand more, and will go for it if I feel I can, sensibly.

 

With what you have (RCD, BSS, Service receipts), if it is ’the one’ and meets 75%+ of your requirements I would go for it.

Ensure you get a ’proper’, independently witnessed bill of sale that includes the following  statements:

1. 1. The Seller agrees to sell and the Purchaser agrees to purchase the Vessel free from all debts, claims and charges of every kind subject to the terms of this Agreement for the sum of £xx,xxx (pounds sterling) (“the Purchase Price”)  together with all the gear and equipment bought for and belonging to the Vessel as detailed in the attached inventory but excluding provisions and the Seller’s personal effects. 

   2. The Seller warrants that VAT and Customs Duty is not payable on the sale of the Vessel which is the subject of this Agreement.

 

I have previously posted links to acceptable BoS, if you need a copy let me know and I’ll mail one to you.

[bargemast]

23 hours ago, cereal tiller said:

The Boat in the First link is described as having a Swimming Pool but no Picture of one ,also States 'Sleeps 7' ,One Elderly Paloma Water Heater in the Pics. must have it's Work cut out for it at Shower/Bath time!

The boat you looked at that has the swimmingpool is the ad of a luxurious hotel-barge, have another look and you'll see that it's not in the same price-bracket either.

The barge the OP is interested in starts just below the photo of the hotel-barge, and the price is 1/10th of the other.

 

Peter.

[bargemast]

23 hours ago, cereal tiller said:

The Boat in the First link is described as having a Swimming Pool but no Picture of one ,also States 'Sleeps 7' ,One Elderly Paloma Water Heater in the Pics. must have it's Work cut out for it at Shower/Bath time!

The picture of the boat you're showing here is a Branson luxemotor design, which is 1.5 times the lenght of "Bee", and "Bee" isn't a luxemotor but a tug, and very pretty at that, I've been lucky enough to see her in the flesh, and really like that boat very much, but I'm biased as I'm quite used to seeing all kinds of different sizes of Dutch tugs.

Branson does a tug-kit too, which is better to compare with:  http://www.dutch-barges.net/tug.html

 

Peter.

 

 

 

[captain flint]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

With what you have (RCD, BSS, Service receipts), if it is ’the one’ and meets 75%+ of your requirements I would go for it.

Ensure you get a ’proper’, independently witnessed bill of sale that includes the following  statements:

1. 1. The Seller agrees to sell and the Purchaser agrees to purchase the Vessel free from all debts, claims and charges of every kind subject to the terms of this Agreement for the sum of £xx,xxx (pounds sterling) (“the Purchase Price”)  together with all the gear and equipment bought for and belonging to the Vessel as detailed in the attached inventory but excluding provisions and the Seller’s personal effects. 

   2. The Seller warrants that VAT and Customs Duty is not payable on the sale of the Vessel which is the subject of this Agreement.

 

I have previously posted links to acceptable BoS, if you need a copy let me know and I’ll mail one to you.

I'd love a copy thanks

What does "properly" witnessed mean to you? There are at least three different kinds I can think of!

I'll PM you with my email address

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, captain flint said:

What does "properly" witnessed mean to you?

Details sent..

I have normally used 'just' an independent person,  never bothered with finding 'someone of standing in the community' but you can do whatever you / your seller want or find acceptable.