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Batteries and being off grid


rowland al

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2 hours ago, KenK said:

Ignoring the argument regarding the correct method of expressing energy usage. Some real world information.

This year we changed the way we use our boat, for twelve years it has been used for holidays and weekends, for that purpose six 110 Amp Hr Numax leisure batteries have been satisfactory, the first set lasting nearly eight years, we replaced them with the same type.

This year we used the boat as liveaboards cruising from  Newbury to Leeds covering all the waterways we could on the way. It became very obvious early on in the journey that the now four year old batteries were not performing as we needed. We have a Smartgauge and a Smartbank fitted, so we know we were charging correctly but we were dropping to around 60% after a nights use. We have all LED lights but the fridge and TV both run from a PSW inverter. The fridge was the problem even though it was new A+ unit it could easily cause the inverter to trip not long after we had moored up because the compressor starting current was greater than the batteries could supply to the inverter.

I replaced the six Numax batteries with five 170 Amp Hr traction batteries, these are flooded tubular plate beasts, they weigh twice as much as the Numax at 40 kilos each. The difference is amazing a nights use sees a drop of less than 5 % on the Smartgauge and the fridge has been tamed.

We have had this discussion many times but so called leisure batteries are for the most part simply larger starter batteries and therefore not ideal as domestic batteries, easy to tell, if there is a CCA figure quoted in the description it is a starter battery. Traction batteries are more expensive but they work and provided they are looked after will last longer.

I have no idea how the OP uses his boat but my experience suggests that for liveaboard use a simple starter battery will have a short life as they are simply not designed to be used as domestic batteries.

 

Ken

I did wonder about traction batteries. Won't they need to be trickle charged every night to keep them in shape though? 

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9 minutes ago, rowland al said:

I did wonder about traction batteries. Won't they need to be trickle charged every night to keep them in shape though? 

Not only that. you have to name them and read them bedtime stories each and every day or they get miffed and last no longer whatsoever than cheapos.

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11 minutes ago, rowland al said:

I did wonder about traction batteries. Won't they need to be trickle charged every night to keep them in shape though? 

No, but what they will need is fully charging as soon as possible after discharge. The last few percentage but MIGHT be a trickle charge over night but that all depends upon how quickly you can charge them during the day.

ANY battery will gradually destroy itself as it works, the trick is to choose a type that suits your use and recharge ASAP.  The battery might be starter, leisure, semi-traction or traction. The longer you leave any of then even partially discharged the more capacity you will lose to sulphation.

Be aware that a very popular semi-traction battery makes seems to require regular equalising at 15 volts or so. If you can not do this then maybe traction or  semi-traction are not for you.

For any battery the lighter the discharge, the shorter the time before recharging and the more fully you can recharge the longer its life will be.

For any given load you will destroy an expensive battery about as fast as a cheap one if you do not or can not follow those basic requirements.

Personally I gave up long ago trying to extend battery life by use of expensive batteries. I am happy with good quality leisure ones, keeping them, fully charged with discharges to no more than 50% and changing them as and when required.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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55 minutes ago, bizzard said:

A BIT IMPORTANT.    I;ve checked with the patents office, and believe it or not the patent for the principal of ''The Crank'' has long expired. So I'm about to re-invent it. Meanwhile prepare to cease using engines in all modes of conveyances and in any othe implement whatsoever. This NOTISS applies to any mechanism that involves the principal of ''The Crank'' in the whole wide world and in space, ''NASA take note''   My intention is to bring the world to a standstill until  I've completed re-inventing and re-patenting  ''The Crank''. I shall take my time over the process which will allow the people of the world to swoon in peace, tranquility and jollyness from noisy stinky engines, mechanisms and the like. Completion of the process should be at about 2.04pm, 1st April, 2073. Until then start saving up to pay me my ''Royalties'' for allowing further use of the ''Principal of the CRANK''.  Ruyalty Payments to myself  ''Bizzard'' MUST be made payable to   (Messer Bizzard & Co Unlimited)   by Cash, postal order, cheque, bank transfer, debit or credit cards.  Stricktly No ''Easy terms'' .so don't bother asking.       By order of Messer Bizzard & Co Unlimited.   :mellow:  

 

It's YOU Bizz, that's the Crank!

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It's YOU Bizz, that's the Crank!

You'll rue the day you said that.  Just wait until you want to drive your van to mend a boiler, start up your boats and generator, use your sewing machine, lawnmover ect and can't until my royalties are paid.  It also will apply to boat pump out bogs too as most, either pay machines or DIY machines involve cranks of some type. I suggest getting a cassette toilet in the meantime,  Aso invest in masts and suits of sails to power the boats, or a long strong stick or quant pole to propel it.    (Messer Bizzard & Co Unlimited) :angry:

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2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

You'll rue the day you said that.  Just wait until you want to drive your van to mend a boiler, start up your boats and generator, use your sewing machine, lawnmover ect and can't until my royalties are paid.  It also will apply to boat pump out bogs too as most, either pay machines or DIY machines involve cranks of some type. I suggest getting a cassette toilet in the meantime,  Aso invest in masts and suits of sails to power the boats, or a long strong stick or quant pole to propel it.    (Messer Bizzard & Co Unlimited) :angry:

Nor will you be able to operate locks as the windlass is cranked.

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10 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Nor will you be able to operate locks as the windlass is cranked.

Its not cranked. but the action of you using it is the crank principal., so won't be allowed either.  The crank principal transforms liinear motion to rotary and visa versa.

Edited by bizzard
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13 minutes ago, bizzard said:

You'll rue the day you said that.  Just wait until you want to drive your van to mend a boiler, start up your boats and generator, use your sewing machine, lawnmover ect and can't until my royalties are paid.  It also will apply to boat pump out bogs too as most, either pay machines or DIY machines involve cranks of some type. I suggest getting a cassette toilet in the meantime,  Aso invest in masts and suits of sails to power the boats, or a long strong stick or quant pole to propel it.    (Messer Bizzard & Co Unlimited) :angry:

Crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank

:giggles:

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14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank

:giggles:

Sticks and stones.  :)

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank crank

:giggles:

Best keep an eye on that Mr Bizz, it only takes a crank to start a revolution.

..............Dave

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On the rate point

Amps = coulombs per second, where coulomb is a unit of charge (approx 6 x 10^18 electrons). So it is a rate of movement of charge. 

Amp hour (one amp flowing for an hour, or 10 amps for 6 minutes) is a unit of charge.  By multiplying by 12v it converts to a unit of energy. Its the right unit for a power audit. 

Amps per hour is a rather silly unit,  measuring acceleration. So if you have one light on for an hour consuming one amp,  and then turn on a second an hour later,  and then a third an hour later,  that is increase of one amp per hour. But what matters is total charge used over the three hours which is 1+2+3 = 6. [amp hours]

Edited by Scholar Gypsy
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44 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

On the rate point

Amps = coulombs per second, where coulomb is a unit of charge (approx 6 x 10^18 electrons). So it is a rate of movement of charge. 

Amp hour (one amp flowing for an hour, or 10 amps for 6 minutes) is a unit of charge.  By multiplying by 12v it converts to a unit of energy. Its the right unit for a power audit. 

Amps per hour is a rather silly unit,  measuring acceleration. So if you have one light on for an hour consuming one amp,  and then turn on a second an hour later,  and then a third an hour later,  that is increase of one amp per hour. But what matters is total charge used over the three hours which is 1+2+3 = 6.

You’ll still get folk saying “I use 20 Amps per night”. 

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I s'pose its confusing compared to say a flow of water which is the other way round. 20 litres/hour is a flow rate and 20 litres is a quantity of water.

Whereas for charge it's 20 amps for a rate of charge and 20 Amp Hours for a quantity of charge.

It's perfectly legitimate to say I use 70 litres a day.

Edited by smileypete
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21 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Despite all of the mix up with units, I'm actually interested how long this single 75AH starter battery is going to last being used as a leisure battery in daily use.

My initial thoughts would be not very long.

Lets have a poll ............... or a prize [christmas turkey?], to be awarded on 29th Feb

OP reckons 2 years, I am thinking 2 months !

Edited by LadyG
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kJ or MJ would be the most correct units to use for energy.  As you know, 1 kWh is equal to 1,000 joules per second for one hour or 3,600,000 Joules = 3.6MJ.  MJ's work equally for any voltage, unlike Amp-hours.

Edited by mross
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