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Victron combi versus Separates


Dr Bob

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4 minutes ago, mross said:

in reply to Pearley, Yes, but why should this be necessary?  And it doesn't fix the battery charger.  A simple system is needed so that none-technical partners can sort problems easily.

The battery charger issue sounds like it is just a setting issue.  If the OP can go through his full settings (you will have to go through the manual and set the dip switches and look at the lights on that model) then maybe we can si=uggest some changes.

OP, do you have the voltage and temp sensor installed?

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14 minutes ago, mross said:

in reply to Pearley, Yes, but why should this be necessary?  And it doesn't fix the battery charger.  A simple system is needed so that none-technical partners can sort problems easily.

It’s unlikely to be necessary provided reasonable quality kit is installed. But if it is, and the owner is non-technical, then an electrician will be needed. The same electrician as would be required on a boat with separates to eg disconnect the damaged inverter and replace with a new/repaired one.

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25 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s unlikely to be necessary provided reasonable quality kit is installed. But if it is, and the owner is non-technical, then an electrician will be needed. The same electrician as would be required on a boat with separates to eg disconnect the damaged inverter and replace with a new/repaired one.

5 years ago the transfer switch on our original Victron Combi failed. The switch (actually a relay) was rated at 30 amp and we were feeding a 6.5 kva generator through it. Given the occasions when my wife thought we were still in a house and over loaded the system it probably just had enough. We bought a new unit which now has a 50 amp transfer switch so is now working well within its limitations. When it failed if took about 5 minutes to diagnose the problem. 2 hours to walk to somewhere I could buy some heavy duty connector block and another 5 minutes to connect the 2 lots of tails together. 

The biggest problem was that we and Onboard Energy thought the unit repairable, we were due to go away to Italy for a fortnight, we had a 12 volt fridge/freezer and no way to keep the batteries properly charged whilst away. Could have bought a marine charger or just empty the freezer. So we eat all we could and dumped the rest. The irony was that on our return Onboard said the Victron was unrepairable. So we bought a new one which we could have done a fortnight earlier. 

But such is life. 

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3 hours ago, mross said:

I think a 13A plug, on a flying lead, with three sockets marked, 'generator', 'shoreline' and 'inverter' is hard to beat.  It is uber-reliable and immediately obvious where the juice is coming from, or not!  It avoids any risk of back feeding.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

Thanks very much for all the inputs. I have read and understood them all. Dont agree with them all;)

I can see that if the auto switch on the combi fails, I can wire the 240v tails together and get 240V back to the boat. That removes one of my concerns about the combi. I am still left with two. 1) our combi lost the plot and turned off when we were away for a week so no power to the oil filled rads so the boat got cold. It was -10°C one night - but no frozen pipes thankfully. This happened because the power on the pontoon was being switched on and off - but that is always likley to happen. 2) I cannot switch my battery charger on/off to get it to do another absortion cycle without turning off the tv/pie/router which is a pain. A separate charger would sort this.

A further point is the user friendlyness of the victron and the method of changing settings. A degree in pressing buttons 57 times looks a prerequisit. I am sure there is a more user friendly one if I want to switch tail current or charging V if I change battery type.

On Mross's set up, where is the RCD/breaker. The sockets are the live side and the plug is the boat 240v side, but how do you configure the RCD/Breaker? Sorry if I am being dumb here but whilst I understand batteries a bit, I am useless at electrics

Finally why was Nick late to the discussion?

2 hours ago, Robbo said:

The battery charger issue sounds like it is just a setting issue.  If the OP can go through his full settings (you will have to go through the manual and set the dip switches and look at the lights on that model) then maybe we can si=uggest some changes.

OP, do you have the voltage and temp sensor installed?

I will look through the manual tomorrow to see if i can set a different tail current. Yes I have a battery monitor and monitor Volts and Amps and Ahrs out. Yes there is a temp sensor from the combi to the batteries and the charging voltage is significantly higher now its gone cold 14.7-14.8V now vs 14.4V in the summer.

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17 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

On Mross's set up, where is the RCD/breaker.

In the consumer unit. 

The consumer unit is fed by a flying lead with a 13A plug on the end. Each of the power sources is fed only to a single socket and nowhere else. The flying lead plugs into whichever you choose. 

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22 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

1) our combi lost the plot and turned off when we were away for a week so no power to the oil filled rads so the boat got cold.

If the combi is switched to ‘Charger only’ does it still pass the AC? If so that sounds like the best setting when you’re away from the boat. 

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2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If the combi is switched to ‘Charger only’ does it still pass the AC? If so that sounds like the best setting when you’re away from the boat. 

Exactly. Not only does Dr Bob's unit have such a switch, there's a photo of it in the 'charger' position in the original post.

(Mine still went duff whilst in this position, coincidentally  as a contractor was safety testing the shore supply bollard my landline was plugged into) 

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5 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Mine still went duff whilst in this position, coincidentally  as a contractor was safety testing the shore supply bollard my landline was plugged into

If he was doing insulation tests then I’m not surprised it went duff. If that’s what he was doing then it was highly irresponsible of him to do so without ensuring that nothing was plugged in. 

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25 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If the combi is switched to ‘Charger only’ does it still pass the AC? If so that sounds like the best setting when you’re away from the boat. 

Yes, still passes AC and I usually leave it on this setting when on shore power and always when off boat in a marina in case power goes off and I flatten the batteries

18 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Exactly. Not only does Dr Bob's unit have such a switch, there's a photo of it in the 'charger' position in the original post.

(Mine still went duff whilst in this position, coincidentally  as a contractor was safety testing the shore supply bollard my landline was plugged into) 

Did you get the same problem? No lights on the combo, no AC to the boat 240v circuit but shore power to the boat? Any ideas why? That's one reason I am thinking to change. May not be so lucky with freezing weather next time.

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23 minutes ago, WotEver said:

In the consumer unit. 

The consumer unit is fed by a flying lead with a 13A plug on the end. Each of the power sources is fed only to a single socket and nowhere else. The flying lead plugs into whichever you choose. 

Ok, I understand. Doesn't sound to difficult but may get a little man in to do it for me.

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So that is 35 posts and only one with a joke. You lot are slipping! .....and no I can't connect it up to the Ecofan as that is up t'other end of boat.

If I do then buy a new battery charger and just use the combo as an inverter, what is the best make of battery charger to get? I think 40-60A is fine (660Ahrs when new) as when we get back to the marina we usually have had a bit of engine running to get in and I don't normally go below 80%.

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4 hours ago, mross said:

I think a 13A plug, on a flying lead, with three sockets marked, 'generator', 'shoreline' and 'inverter' is hard to beat.  It is uber-reliable and immediately obvious where the juice is coming from, or not!  It avoids any risk of back feeding.

Similar set up but 16 AMP. Female shoreline come into Boat through Trapdoor ,the Boat's "Ring Main" has a 16 AMP. Male linked the The RCD Consumer Box. the Inverter has a Female 16 AMP. connector and the Generator is DC only so just Hooked up the the Main battery Bank , 30 AMP. Charger is on Boats Ring.it takes 3 seconds (Approx) to change from National Grid to Inverter Power. Shore Bollard has RCD as well.

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12 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Mastervolt 

Make sure he's called Vic or Ron

Com'on, I need more justification than that. Pros, Cons, declaration of bias, sponsorship?

Going off Vic and Ron, didn't keep me connected the last few days. Bit cold whe we got back to the boat but  Toastie now the stove is full of Homefire and the fan is going round.

10 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

Similar set up but 16 AMP. Female shoreline come into Boat through Trapdoor ,the Boat's "Ring Main" has a 16 AMP. Male linked the The RCD Consumer Box. the Inverter has a Female 16 AMP. connector and the Generator is DC only so just Hooked up the the Main battery Bank , 30 AMP. Charger is on Boats Ring.it takes 3 seconds (Approx) to change from National Grid to Inverter Power. Shore Bollard has RCD as well.

Yes I like it. Not found a trapdoor on the boat yet. Is that where the unwanted crew go?

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3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Com'on, I need more justification than that. Pros, Cons, declaration of bias, sponsorship?

Going off Vic and Ron, didn't keep me connected the last few days. Bit cold whe we got back to the boat but  Toastie now the stove is full of Homefire and the fan is going round.

Yes I like it. Not found a trapdoor on the boat yet. Is that where the unwanted crew go?

Only the Muppets.it is a Small Flap I built into the Rear Cabin Panel when I built the Boat ,as you do.

5 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I gotta recommend them as i'm on the board of directors :)

Thought you were an Under Cover Fund Raiser for the CCT?

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1 hour ago, cereal tiller said:

Similar set up but 16 AMP. Female shoreline come into Boat through Trapdoor ,the Boat's "Ring Main" has a 16 AMP. Male linked the The RCD Consumer Box. the Inverter has a Female 16 AMP. connector and the Generator is DC only so just Hooked up the the Main battery Bank , 30 AMP. Charger is on Boats Ring.it takes 3 seconds (Approx) to change from National Grid to Inverter Power. Shore Bollard has RCD as well.

It will work, of course. As do candles.

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9 hours ago, WotEver said:

If he was doing insulation tests then I’m not surprised it went duff. If that’s what he was doing then it was highly irresponsible of him to do so without ensuring that nothing was plugged in. 

He insisted all he'd done was unplug our supply whilst checking the bollard, which he must've done to all boats. My Combi should have been able to withstand disconnection and reconnection and it would be difficult to think of why he'd have done anything else. Who knows whether it was more than a coincidence, and it would be hard to prove otherwise. Testing the insulation resistance of my shore line would probably have done the trick though, eh?

9 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

 

Did you get the same problem? No lights on the combo, no AC to the boat 240v circuit but shore power to the boat? Any ideas why? That's one reason I am thinking to change. May not be so lucky with freezing weather next time.

Sounds pretty similar. My Combi was a Mastervolt, who do seem to do much better manuals than Victron (although Victron are better with questions in my experience) so I put it down to a fault in the AC transfer switch circuit, but there's no user serviceable parts inside and all fuses were fine. My choice was to try the Mastervolt fixed price repair loop in the Netherlands (£458 iirc) which meant long down time I was keen to avoid, like for like replacement (easiest route but expensive), or a change to separates which was not only cheaper this time but also offered the associated advantages other folk have referred to and lower replacement costs in case of future faults.

I restored shore AC througout the boat by connecting the AC into the Combi to both of the Combi outputs - shore only circuits and short break (inverter maintained). The inverter side still worked, so I could reconnect the short break circuits and use the inverter whilst cruising, but it was a bit inconvenient. Fitting an easier means of  this changeover would have been a 'fix' of sorts, and a separate charger could have been added to replace the charger side, but would still mean I had a broken Combi and a 'work around'. 

I found a Victron inverter supplier (www.powersavingsolutions.co.uk) who was 20 - 25% cheaper than the next best price, so that rather took the sting out too!  The was a problem with the unit supplied (in a factory sealed box, so not a supplier induced issue) and their after sales service was awesome, so I'd recommend them without reservation - I have no connection other than as a satisfied customer.  They do bigger and heavier stuff mostly, so I had to buy my Victron charger elsewhere.

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13 minutes ago, mross said:

sterling pro charge ultra chargers are good and can be fixed in the UK.  Mastervolt and Victron normally have to be sent back to the Netherlands.

I have no connection with them but am a happy customer.

Agreed, that is the Big Drawback with the Dutch/Chinese ones,I had a Mastervolt 2 KW Inverter which failed after 11 Years ,the thought of Paying  £150 to have it sent to Holland and Repaired was Silly.

Purchased a new Sunshine Solar 3 KW Inverter for £ 500 3 Years ago ,they are made in Taiwan/China and seem to do the Job well  .

 

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23 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Testing the insulation resistance of my shore line would probably have done the trick though, eh?

Testing an electrical installation involves many tests, including overall resistance of the earth path, insulation integrity etc. The latter involves a 500V test voltage (applied for one minute I believe) which should obviously only be carried out with the installation completely disconnected from anything, including incoming mains. Harsher environments may require the test to be carried out at 1000V but this isn’t my area of expertise and I have no idea if a marina would qualify for such a classification. 

Obviously if the 500V was applied with anything connected, damage would likely occur. 

Having said all that, yes it’s quite possibly nothing more than coincidence that Your combi died at the same time. Most electronic equipment dies when being switched off and on, not when running steadily. 

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