Diesel Fuel Treatment - Clearwinner LA88

[Momac]

I needed some fuel treatment and after a little searching have ordered some Clearwinner LA88. I haven't used this product previously but seems like it should be okay. I have no connection but seems like a small company worth supporting.
http://www.clear-winner.co.uk/products/marine/
Alan Stewart <sales@clear-winner.co.uk>

[dmr]

Its very difficult choosing additives, only a very few companies have the expertise and resources to actually understand and make the stuff, so most are just buying it in, repackaging, and selling on. I think its often supplied very concentrated so some also dilute it with a suitable carrier before rebadging and selling on. Some of these rebadgers are big marketing companies, other quite small. I reckon the one that you have found is a little one man company possibly working from home with his stock in a little industrial unit.

There is no technical info on the website. What is the cost per 100litre of fuel ?

.....................Dave

[Tony Brooks]

As that website lists several different fuel treatments for different "problems" we need to know what your "problem" is and which additive you are talking about.

Personally I would want to know exactly what "removes water from fuel tanks" means and from there decide if the product will do it with minimal risk..

[Alan Stewart]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

As that website lists several different fuel treatments for different "problems" we need to know what your "problem" is and which additive you are talking about.

Personally I would want to know exactly what "removes water from fuel tanks" means and from there decide if the product will do it with minimal risk..

 

[mrsmelly]

Who is good at Maffs? can anyone work out how much fuel additives would have cost me over the past 28 years if I had ever bought any. I have been off grid for most of it charging from various engines and travelled extensively during this time. Whats a good guesstimate? Will I now get the dreaded bug

[Tony Brooks]

Just noticed the OP specified LA88.

Things I have reservations about at this time of year:

1. "Disperses water". If its an emulsifier I would want to suck from the bottom of the tank first to remove excess water. Such additives may be suspected of making a sort of mousse in the fuel.

2. If it simply demulsifies any water in the fuel I would not like that laying ion the bottom of the tank until spring.

3. "Counteracts potential diesel bug growth" This could be by simply removing water from the bug so it dies or by actively poisoning it as per Marine 16 so it depends upon what the OP is trying to achieve.

In my view additives alone with no housekeeping for the tank and fuel is likely to be less affective than proper care & maintenance.

[Alan Stewart]

Ref : CLEARWINNER LA88 - just to clarify , as many in this marine sector will not have heard of our company ... our products are of our own manufacture and formulated by myself and team. We do supply a number of other industries (agriculture etc) but each sector does have their own "problems" to which our products are specifically geared. Common to all though , is declining Diesel fuel quality : i.e lack of lubricity , reduced shelf life and performance. LA88 is based on organic solvent (excellent injector cleaner) and by it's very nature will absorb droplets of water which are then atomised with the fuel , without damage to injectors. However , we never claim it to be the elixir to remove all water from a fuel tank's base. Our LA88 customers range from Arctic icebreakers , small vessels , workboat and trawler / pelagic vessel operators.  Alan Stewart.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Who is good at Maffs? can anyone work out how much fuel additives would have cost me over the past 28 years if I had ever bought any. I have been off grid for most of it charging from various engines and travelled extensively during this time. Whats a good guesstimate? Will I now get the dreaded bug

I can have a go at the sums, but there is no real answer. I reckon most people would get away with using no additive at all for most of the time. Its a bit like life really, all you can do is try to tip the odds a little bit in your favour.

We use about 1200litre of fuel each year. I use the Stanadyne additive because that consistently gets good reports from people who actually know about these things. This costs about £72. The Stanadyne does the lubricity/detergent/stabilisation/water removal things and is also a cetane raiser, but is not a biocide. With luck the cetane raising improves our fuel consumption a bit but I have not a clue whether this makes it pay for itself or not.

I also add a bit of marine 16 biocide but I am more random about this, doing it sometimes in winter and less in summer. If I see even a hint of any slime when I change a fuel filter then I do a bigger dose of marine 16. Maybe spend £30 per year on this so a total of £100.

If I had a injection pump contamination issue then its about £600 to get the pump fully stripped. cleaned and rebuilt, plus lots of time and effort from me to remove it, get it to a suitable agent (few and far between) and refit it, plus cleaning fuel lines, organising a generator and petrol whilst the engine is out of action etc etc.

For me the additive looks to make sense, but then again two winters ago we still had a pump contamination issue despite the additive. but I think that was a bit of a "unusual" event.

...........Dave

[Momac]

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 we need to know what your "problem" is

I don't have  a fuel problem but want to use a fuel additive as  a preventative measure.

[Keeping Up]

When we had a severe bug problem which was not cured by polishing nor by Enersolve, Exocet, Marine16, or Fuelset including trying 6 times the recommended dose, and it was eventually cured only by steam-cleaning the tank and replacing everything else (pipes filters etc) the total cost was nearly £2000 - not to mention the hidden cost of changing all our travel plans etc. Compared to that the cost of a good additive is negligible (although we were using one when the bug was introduced apparently by a contaminated syphon tube after our locking cap was picked and the fuel stolen).

[mross]

Diesel bug may or not exist, but the preventatives are probably worthless.  How can the vendors prove their worth?  All they have is anecdotal evidence.  Many people use these additives and have no further problems; that does not prove that they do anything.  

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, mross said:

Diesel bug may or not exist, but the preventatives are probably worthless.  How can the vendors prove their worth?  All they have is anecdotal evidence.  Many people use these additives and have no further problems; that does not prove that they do anything.  

There is no doubt that diesel bug exists, and has done  for years.  However it is much more common since the introduction of 7% FAME to make biodoesel. I suspect the reduction in sulphur content has also played a part.

I first came across it in the late 1980's, in large external fuel tanks supporting standby generators, which are more prone to getting condensation in them then underground  internal tanks. 

Whether the additives work is another matter, but I suspect they do no harm in recommended doses.

[Momac]

1 minute ago, mross said:

Diesel bug may or not exist, but the preventatives are probably worthless.  How can the vendors prove their worth?  All they have is anecdotal evidence.  Many people use these additives and have no further problems; that does not prove that they do anything.  

I have used an additive previously , over several years and two boats , and convinced it has  led to less smoke on start up and smoother running when used regularly. Of course I cannot prove anything .

For me it's mainly about using a treatment to keep the fuel system clean . Avoiding diesel bug may be an expected  bi product but ,as said, the bug can be introduced despite best efforts.

I cant see an additive doing  any harm and it doesn't have to make more than a tiny difference to fuel economy to pay for itself. The total cost in a year is , for me, not a lot in the scheme of things and may even have saved me some trouble.

 

[mross]

But these additives don't claim to improve fuel economy!

16 minutes ago, cuthound said:

but I suspect they do no harm in recommended doses.

I can sell you an additive, at £100 for 100ml that does no harm.  Its main ingredient is diesel oil.

[Momac]

Just now, mross said:

But these additives don't claim to improve fuel economy!

Is it not logical to conclude a clean fuel system and in particular clean injectors will mean the engine will run as efficiently as is possible?

[mross]

no

[Chewbacka]

Diesel cars & trucks don't use additives and the motorways aren't littered with broken down vehicles with clogged fuel systems.  But then very few vehicles have fuel in their tanks more than a few week old, and often less.  The fuel they fill up with is also from fuel tanks that are regularly replenished.  However if you are the sort of boater that fills their tank for the winter with fuel from a low turnover place (maybe already a few months old) and are still using it the following autumn then I would suggest diesel bug additives are essential.  Conversely, if you get through many hundreds of litres per year always refilling with fresh fuel then you are probably wasting your money if you dose your fuel.  As to the majority of boaters in between, it's a judgement call and depends upon how close you are to one extreme or the other.

[dmr]

41 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Diesel cars & trucks don't use additives and the motorways aren't littered with broken down vehicles with clogged fuel systems.  But then very few vehicles have fuel in their tanks more than a few week old, and often less.  The fuel they fill up with is also from fuel tanks that are regularly replenished.  However if you are the sort of boater that fills their tank for the winter with fuel from a low turnover place (maybe already a few months old) and are still using it the following autumn then I would suggest diesel bug additives are essential.  Conversely, if you get through many hundreds of litres per year always refilling with fresh fuel then you are probably wasting your money if you dose your fuel.  As to the majority of boaters in between, it's a judgement call and depends upon how close you are to one extreme or the other.

But the road diesel almost certainly has some additives in it already, and the red diesel on the cut probably doesn't. I think the additive that is the subject of this thread is a general purpose lubricity/detergent thing rather than a diesel bug biocide.

............Dave

[Momac]

7 hours ago, dmr said:

 I think the additive that is the subject of this thread is a general purpose lubricity/detergent thing rather than a diesel bug biocide.

............Dave

I agree its not a bug treatment.

But it disperses water and without water the bug cannot develop.

[cuthound]

9 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

Diesel cars & trucks don't use additives and the motorways aren't littered with broken down vehicles with clogged fuel systems.  But then very few vehicles have fuel in their tanks more than a few week old, and often less.  The fuel they fill up with is also from fuel tanks that are regularly replenished.  However if you are the sort of boater that fills their tank for the winter with fuel from a low turnover place (maybe already a few months old) and are still using it the following autumn then I would suggest diesel bug additives are essential.  Conversely, if you get through many hundreds of litres per year always refilling with fresh fuel then you are probably wasting your money if you dose your fuel.  As to the majority of boaters in between, it's a judgement call and depends upon how close you are to one extreme or the other.

Exactly this. Diesel bug lives in the water/oil interface.

The longer thst interface exists, the more likely the bug is to develop.

That is why it is important to remove water from the bottom of the tank periodically.

8 hours ago, dmr said:

But the road diesel almost certainly has some additives in it already, and the red diesel on the cut probably doesn't. I think the additive that is the subject of this thread is a general purpose lubricity/detergent thing rather than a diesel bug biocide.

............Dave

Road diesel and red diesel are now the same except for the dye. The exception being premium diesel from the manor brands which contain a detergent and cetane boosting pack.

[Alan Stewart]

Ref : LA88 - yes , that's right , LA88 is more about lubricity enhancement , stabiliising fuel in storage and protecting fuel systems from water ingress. By maintaining optimum fuel atomisation through clean injectors , fuel consumption will naturally improve , assuming injector cleaners have not been used before. If "bug" strikes , with evidence of blocked fuel filters, CLEARWINNER D-BUG Diesel fuel biocide provides a rapid cure. In cases of extreme , deep seated long term "bug" contamination , unfortunately , no biocide around will resolve the problem and a tank cleaning programme is required. A dose of biocide as a precaution after that , will assure no return of the manifestation.

[Tony Brooks]

As Google turnd this up:

Clearwinner Fuel Additive Technolology | Demonstration Video

www.clear-winner.co.uk/demonstration-video/

This demonstration video from Alan Stewart, shows how CLEARWINNER products disperse water contamination in Diesel Fuel.

And the link goes straight to Clearwater's website then perhaps he can tell us exactly what his claims in the LA88 bumph mean in real life.  As I said I have real concerns about using an emulsifier type product without  draining the tank and also with using a demulsifier at this time of year without draining the tank after a suitable time.

I have told the forum this before but when a major automotive additive company used to hire the College workshop for demos to the trade I cornered their technical bod and quizzed him on the claimed actions of their diesel product. The replay was something like this - " any water in the tank is dissolved into the fuel by attaching one molecule of water to one of the fuel, in that way it can pass safely through the fuel system. As it leaves the injector it steam cleans the nozzle."

Perhaps Alan can also come clean and in ordinary language tell us how his product betters those more readily available and known to the inland marine sector.

 

On another tack, I view the use of additives as a relatively cheap insurance rather than a cure of an existing problem but, again a I said, good housekeeping of the fuel system including draining the tank regularly, inspecting the content of fuel filters, and buying fuel from outlets with a high turnover and more to lose than you if they get bug is probably more important.

[mross]

PBO did a test http://www.pbo.co.uk/gear/12-diesel-bug-treatments-tested-43353

Edited December 14, 2017 by mross

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, mross said:

Does anyone know of any independent testing of diesel bug preventative additives?

No, the only "independent" report I have seen was the YBW one that is more than 10 or more years old and it turned out that the testing lab used had "interests" in one of the products reviewed that, I understand, happened to come out top. I also felt the tests did not adequately allow for the different methods for dealing with bug. Biocides kill swiftly while emulsifier types remove water so the bug dies slowly. The time scales of the tests seemed to be such that one type had a greater advantage.

[mross]

Tony, sorry, as soon as I had asked I found the PBO test from September 2016 and deleted the question and added the link.  It seems to be a methodical test.  But all the products tested left deposits in the tank.  I think it would be a good get-you-home solution but eventually, the tank should be completely emptied and mechanically cleaned.  The biocides might be good before a problem occurs. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by mross