INFRA RED UNDERFLOOR HEATING

[dmr]

4 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

A tea light, flower pot and an Ecofan is all that's needed to keep a narrowboat toasty warm in sub zero weather. 

We haven't got a flowerpot, or an ecofan since it fell off the stove, but do find that 12 tealights in a metal tray does take the chill off the back cabin.

When the ecofan fell off the stove it slightly twisted a blade so that it actually had a bit of pitch, and so the motor was no longer able to drive it

.............Dave

[MtB]

A few points cross my mind having read this thread.

1) Early posts talk about electricity being expensive as a heating fuel. This is a pointless comment as the source of the leccy is critically important. Off-grid generated leccy generated using diesel is probably far more expensive than even marina-supplied leccy. It is probaly little or no more expensive than using the same diesel to heat water to heat some radiators or blown air, given electric heating is usually 100% efficient.

2) Infra-red is radiation. So technically, infra-red underfloor heating seems a bit odd. The floor under which the infra-red heating is happening will be presumably being heated by the infra-red radiation, heating up and consequently heating the boat. Unnecessarily complicated and no help with fuel efficiency. A nice hot floor however is nice to have.

3) A typically well insulated 57ft boat probably needs about 3kW (or a hellvalot more if poorly insulated) to heat it in cold weather when outside temp is 0C, never mind that 1.24kW figure mentioned. Plain silliness. Coal is FAR cheaper per kWhr of energy than diesel. One helluva hot floor will be needed to deliver 3kW+ heating onto a boat. 

4) Their suggestion that solar input is useful and significant in freezing weather illustrates their technical bankruptcy.

5) There will always be a rump of technically illiterate and financially loaded people willing to buy into bollux such as this. The OP seems convinced so perhaps they will invest in the system and prove me wrong.

[bizzard]

Under floor heating would be awful if folk walked about on it in stinking bare or stocking feet. The dreadful pungient nausseous stiinking fumes would rise up like a ferocious beast to choke and smother you to death.   Keep yer Chelsea boots on,     The aroma from a leaking pumpout tank, or from a pet that has pooped or been sick on the mat is like roses and honey in comparison.

Edited December 12, 2017 by bizzard

[roland elsdon]

Personally I'm convinced this will work you only need to apply the correct methodology.

i am proposing the following

10 120 amp alternators off the engine to create my 1.2 kw of energy. Put inverter in back cabin to heat that.

put electric pads under floor in extension. Lovely toasty heat.

run lister ha 2 all day and night it's a lovely noise and most continuous moorers do that anyway.

ill add a bit of solar to charge my noise reducing headphones.

course ill have to leave the internal doors closed for the noise so I'll have to leave pidgin box open and engine ole doors getting rid of the pesky heat that great fan heater of an engine produces.

[Alan de Enfield]

The article was due for release early April, but unfortunately got 'slipped into' the pile for the last edition.

[thebfg]

9 hours ago, bizzard said:

Under floor heating would be awful if folk walked about on it in stinking bare or stocking feet. The dreadful pungient nausseous stiinking fumes would rise up like a ferocious beast to choke and smother you to death.   Keep yer Chelsea boots on,     The aroma from a leaking pumpout tank, or from a pet that has pooped or been sick on the mat is like roses and honey in comparison.

There was a widebeam by us with underfloor heating.

 

However it wes not the only source of heating, I believe it was just a comfort thing. They pumped hot water around, I think.

[Nickhlx]

10 120 amp alternators on a nominal 12 volt system will be producing 10 x 14 x 120 = 16,800 watts, which should be keeping you quite warm, assuming you can fit them on the engine and the engine can turn them adequately

The vision reminds me of the Lambrettas in the 60's / 70's with about 50 headlamps, of which only one or two actually worked !  

 

[Machpoint005]

7 hours ago, roland elsdon said:

add a bit of solar to charge my noise reducing headphones.

I think you meant "lunar"?

4 minutes ago, Nickhlx said:

The vision reminds me of the Lambrettas in the 60's / 70's with about 50 headlamps, of which only one or two actually worked !  

With an engine power output of 6 - 7 kW (and a dynamo a lot less) they wouldn't have worked even if they were connected!

[roland elsdon]

2 hours ago, Nickhlx said:

10 120 amp alternators on a nominal 12 volt system will be producing 10 x 14 x 120 = 16,800 watts, which should be keeping you quite warm, assuming you can fit them on the engine and the engine can turn them adequately

The vision reminds me of the Lambrettas in the 60's / 70's with about 50 headlamps, of which only one or two actually worked !  

 

That's why the inverters in the back cabin will get hot

I'd worked it out at about 14000 watts as I figured it might have a bit of trouble reaching rated output. Still should be warm

[RLWP]

6 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

That's why the inverters in the back cabin will get hot

I'd worked it out at about 14000 watts as I figured it might have a bit of trouble reaching rated output. Still should be warm

Your sums are too simplistic then. You can count the waste heat from the inverters in the overall heating for the boat

[mross]

Interesting discussion here on candles for heating https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18338/is-this-tealight-flowerpot-heater-more-efficient-than-just-tealights

Ten candles all burning together must produce a lot of fumes, not very healthy.  Each candle outputs 50 -80 Watts.  Its calculated above that is could barely raise room temp by one degree.

Funky Heat's wall panel heaters can reach 90 deg C surface temp.  They recommend them for use in wet rooms yet the protection is rated IP45!  Can it be legal to put such a device in a wet room?

Edited December 12, 2017 by mross

[RLWP]

3 minutes ago, mross said:

Interesting discussion here on candles for heating https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/18338/is-this-tealight-flowerpot-heater-more-efficient-than-just-tealights

Ten candles all burning together must produce a lot of fumes, not very healthy.  Each candle outputs 50 -80 Watts.  Its calculated above that is could barely raise room temp by one degree.

I used to use tealights in a hot air engine I built from old food cans. With a tealight in an enclosed space what happens is all of the wax melts and the wick floats on the top. This makes a massive flame, far bigger than a single candle out in the open which has a very small molten wax pool to draw from

Doesn't burn long though

Richard

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, mross said:

Ten candles all burning together must produce a lot of fumes, not very healthy.  Each candle outputs 50 -80 Watts.  Its calculated above that is could barely raise room temp by one degree.

Spose it depends how big the room is. We use tea lights on our plastic boat,which certainly takes the chill out of the cabin

[mross]

"FIR - far infrared is just a tarted up name for radiant heat!  Our bodies give off FIR, so does the Sun and your wood stove.  So the term is just used to bamboozle.

And did everyone notice that the 'Article' in Canal Boat was an ad?  It was not written by the magazine - it was an advertorial.

One of their more ludicrous claims is that their products are "anti ligature".  This means you can't use them to hang yourself!  How many people have used a wood stove or radiator fur such an action?

Another claim is "Solar like Heating – delivers the highest quality radiant heat"  so their heat is different from ordinary heat!

Edited December 12, 2017 by mross

[Sea Dog]

I can't work out why this thread is still going. Surely the first reply should have been...

After which we should have allgone back to MrSmelly's Eco Fan debacle which has far more science going for it. 

[mross]

Where is Jim Riley when you need him?

[Dr Bob]

22 hours ago, mross said:

Radiant IR heaters are good in workshops that have frequently opened doors as you can feel warm even when the air is cold.  But a floor at 24 Deg C is not going to radiate much heat to a body at 37 Deg C.  So, as others have said, it will heat the boat by convection.  I feel a letter to the Advertising Standards Authority coming on!

I'm not trying to support the IR method of heating at all, but let me pick up on something said yesterday. We have underfloor heating in our house (hot water, thick slab, thick PS foam underneath) and our floor runs at circa 24°C (circulating water set at 30°C) to give a room temp of 19-20°C. We have been off the boat this weekend and in the house and it has been struggling a little to keep the room temp up (sub zero temps outside) but usually this heat setting is fine in the winter. I agree though on a boat you would need the floor well above this temp as the heat losses will be signifcant. In a very well insulated house (like ours is), 24°C is fine for most of the time.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Dr Bob

[mross]

I wanted to compare the costs of various heating methods to assess Funky Heat's claim.

I took this table and added a column for the cost per kWh as they were using a mix of kWh and kg.

Fuel	Fuel price (p per unit)	Unit	Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency)	Energy content (kWh per unit)	CO2e emissions per kWh*	p/kWh
Electricity Standard Rate1	18.18	kWh	18.18 (100%)	1	0.517	18.18
Electricity Online Rate1	18.64	kWh	18.64 (100%)	1	0.517	18.64
Mains Gas Standard Rate2	4.14	kWh	4.60 (90%)	1	0.209	4.14
Mains Gas Online Rate2	4.74	kWh	5.27 (90%)	1	0.209	4.74
Kerosene3	46.6	Litre	5.28 (90%)	9.8	0.296	4.76
Gas oil4	56.56	Litre	6.04 (90%)	10.4	0.328	5.44
LPG5	39.16	Litre	6.54 (90%)	6.66	0.242	5.88
Butane6	155.92	Litre	21.74 (90%)	7.97	0.242	19.56
Propane7	74.24	Litre	11.67 (90%)	7.07	0.242	10.50
Seasoned Wood8	20.81	Kg	5.83 (85%)	4.2	0.026	4.95
Pellets9	23.29	Kg	5.48 (90%)	4.72	0.051	4.93
Smokeless fuel10	43.61	Kg	8.68 (75%)	6.7	0.392	6.51
Coal10	29.85	Kg	5.81 (75%)	6.85	0.392	4.36
GSHP11	18.64	kWh	5.32 (350%)	1	0.148	18.64
ASHP11	18.64	kWh	6.90 (270%)	1	0.191	18.64

 

So, even allowing for a wood burner's efficiency of about 60 -70% it is evident that electricity is the most expensive apart from Butane.

Funky Heat say, "The heating quality and cost effectiveness is far better than any of the conventional heating systems in use today."

I say, "baloney!"

Edited December 12, 2017 by mross

[Sea Dog]

10 minutes ago, mross said:

 

I say, "baloney!"

You say Baloney; I say Blarney. Let's call the whole thing off.

[Dr Bob]

13 minutes ago, mross said:

I wanted to compare the costs of various heating methods to assess Funky Heat's claim.

I took this table and added a column for the cost per kWh as they were using a mix of kWh and kg.

Fuel	Fuel price (p per unit)	Unit	Pence per kWh (after boiler efficiency)	Energy content (kWh per unit)	CO2e emissions per kWh*	p/kWh
Electricity Standard Rate1	18.18	kWh	18.18 (100%)	1	0.517	18.18
Electricity Online Rate1	18.64	kWh	18.64 (100%)	1	0.517	18.64
Mains Gas Standard Rate2	4.14	kWh	4.60 (90%)	1	0.209	4.14
Mains Gas Online Rate2	4.74	kWh	5.27 (90%)	1	0.209	4.74
Kerosene3	46.6	Litre	5.28 (90%)	9.8	0.296	4.76
Gas oil4	56.56	Litre	6.04 (90%)	10.4	0.328	5.44
LPG5	39.16	Litre	6.54 (90%)	6.66	0.242	5.88
Butane6	155.92	Litre	21.74 (90%)	7.97	0.242	19.56
Propane7	74.24	Litre	11.67 (90%)	7.07	0.242	10.50
Seasoned Wood8	20.81	Kg	5.83 (85%)	4.2	0.026	4.95
Pellets9	23.29	Kg	5.48 (90%)	4.72	0.051	4.93
Smokeless fuel10	43.61	Kg	8.68 (75%)	6.7	0.392	6.51
Coal10	29.85	Kg	5.81 (75%)	6.85	0.392	4.36
GSHP11	18.64	kWh	5.32 (350%)	1	0.148	18.64
ASHP11	18.64	kWh	6.90 (270%)	1	0.191	18.64

 

So, even allowing for a wood burner's efficiency of about 60 -70% it is evident that electricity is the most expensive apart from Butane.

Funky Heat say, "The heating quality and cost effectiveness is far better than any of the conventional heating systems in use today."

I say, "baloney!"

Wow.

I've not read much of the thread so aplogies if it has been said already. The price for electric is very high. When in the marina, we normally run the oil filled rads as 2ndry heating rather than the eberspacher. This says that diesel (assuming same as kero) is much much cheaper. I figured an hour with the eberspacher on was around 50p whereas I could get 4 hours of 1KW oil filled rad for the same. The eberspacher must be delivering more heat then. Think I will back off using the lecky then!

[mross]

Well, check what price your lekky is, it varies a lot.  We are heating our home with night storage heaters and its costing about £140 a month!  But I think you'll find electric is always the worst choice.

From the website in my link

References:
1. Electricity: Based on an average of the 6 major electricity suppliers’ online prepayment, credit and direct debit tariffs, including standing charges and VAT, but not Economy 7.  Data used are the Tariff Comparison Rates (TCR) provided on the 6 major energy suppliers’ website.

Edited December 12, 2017 by mross

[Robbo]

29 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Wow.

I've not read much of the thread so aplogies if it has been said already. The price for electric is very high. When in the marina, we normally run the oil filled rads as 2ndry heating rather than the eberspacher. This says that diesel (assuming same as kero) is much much cheaper. I figured an hour with the eberspacher on was around 50p whereas I could get 4 hours of 1KW oil filled rad for the same. The eberspacher must be delivering more heat then. Think I will back off using the lecky then!

Ebersplutters will be about 90% efficient, so around 9Kwh per litre of diesel.

[Dr Bob]

8 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Ebersplutters will be about 90% efficient, so around 9Kwh per litre of diesel.

Ok, so going back to the table. Lecky at 18p/KWh and Kero at nearly 5p/KWh.

We now have diesel (which is very similar to Kero) at 9Kwh/L which assuming a Litre of diesel is say 80p so nearly 9p/KWh. I am getting electric at 12.5p/Kwh at home (although not sure what the marina are charging - but I dont think it is much more). Not quite the extremes of the table. Diesel still a bit cheaper than lecky but not a third of the price.

[Nickhlx]

We are currently buying Kero for 49p/litre for domestic use (same supplier will supply red diesel for 59p/L, but don't/can't use it at home) and use it for running the Lockgate on the boat.  Slightly "inconvenient" taking it up there in Jerry cans, but keeps me fit and we don't burn that much...

[mross]

I quoted the average price from the UK's six largest suppliers!  Good for you if you get it cheaper.  Please come back with the price your marina is charging plus VAT.