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Fishy boat deal – or paranoid buyer? You decide!


captain flint

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just as an aside - I purchased a boat last year which had the CE/RCD paperwork missing, and there was no previous Bills of sales, or VAT certificate.

The boat had originally been registered in the USA to 'minimise taxation' and was owned by a company registered in Gibralter to also 'minimise taxation', but then sold to a 'European national' who appeared to be ignorant of the law.

The seller was looking for a reasonably quick sale and, after having explained the complexities of selling / buying a boat without the correct paperwork he agreed to reduce the price by £80,000.

Everything is now 'legal and above board' as I was able to contact the manufacturer and get a copy of the CE/RCD approvals documentation, and I also managed to get a copy of a EU 'T2L' form Customs stamped as being VAT Paid (for the cost of a 'donation to the coffee fund')

 

If it is the boat you want, don't give up, there are 'ways & means'

I have tried not to give up! But I have contacted the yard where it lies and who made it - they were always a bit hard to communicate with, and the broker said he found the same. I said I'd like to find a way of saving the deal (and giving them my money!)

No response.

I'm writing to the vendor.

No response.

I did think to jump in the car and drive to the yard and see if I can't talk to them face to face, though, seems the last option I have!

If you've got any other ideas, I really am all  ears - I really appreciate your knowledgable input so far in this thread (and others).*

I do like the boat very much indeed ad would be willing to listen and be flexible over the deal, but I would probably need to knock £10,000 off the price to get it without papers, that would cover ay VAT request on re-selling, but not much more! I'd be hoping that it's either VAT or unpaid finance, not both! There's still the possibility that the boat is half owned by an ex-wife, though, to worry about...

* In fact I might PM you if I can work out how, about boat stuff in general.

19 minutes ago, thebfg said:

Sorry. I did see you wrote but dident take it all in

 

Your right make it very clear why your writing you should include. 

  • a summary of the facts
  • what you want from the party you're claiming from
  • how you've calculated the sum you want to claim
  • copies of the key documents that you'll use to support your case
  • a list of any documents you want from the other party 
  • a reasonable deadline for a response (usually 28 days).

 

Then pays ya money and Have a day out.

 

Now that is a great check list you've made for me. I really appreciate it. Kind of surprised/not surprised about the level of response on this site - ie I'd be surprised if I hadn't already noticed what a susprising lot of great contributors there are on here, a great forum, thanks to you and alll! 

21 minutes ago, thebfg said:

 

If I could give two greenies I would!

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1 minute ago, Joe Bourke said:

I have Googled Stornoway, French & Peel, 1997. Curiously it came up with Stornoway, French & Peel, Narrowboat 57ft, 1997. For sale Apolloduck, but the listing has ended. 

 

That'll be the one, so "almost certainly" as to be pretty much "certainly". Was on sale about 2/3 months ago. I actually own a copy of the survey. Vendor emailed it to me. First viewer bought (hence ended listing), I was the second, the call came in while i was viewing. Went for the asking price of 62k I think. A tidy sum, but good boat (lovely fit out, too), and... London!

Sad and happy at the same time to have missed out - I would have offered the asking price, too (not that I usually would in such circumstances, believe me, but I thought his pricing was realistically optimistic, if that makes sense); since then I have revised my budget down a bit, so if I'd bought it things could have been a bit too tight, financially!

I have a feeling someone is very happy on her, though.

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6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Speaking bluntly, it is YOU who is wasting the brokers' time. You are not in a position to buy a boat as you've yet to sell the house.

You've been hassling brokers with detailed questions like this for about a year now (if not more). Brokers speak to each other you know! You've probably got your self a reputation as a time-wasting fender-kicker now, which explains why they CBA with your stream of requests for ever finer details about boats they know you cannot buy.

My own circumstances may change any day, I have to be ready to offer straight away, make an offer, pay a deposit and arrange a survey in short order. This is fairly normal.  I am not hassling anyone, just asking for clarification of their wooly descriptions. As it happens, this is the only broker I have ever asked any detailed questions of, and on both occasions have had similar responses, I won't be contacting them again. They invite contact by "chat", and then ask one to phone the broker on site, ten minutes after agreeing to use email, this makes me very wary. It's their job to market boats, that is how they earn their commission.

http://www.abcboatsales.com/boat-sales/rochester-anderton-marina/

PS I've been looking for about six months, and the flat has not been on the market for much of that time.

PPS There are only a few boats on my short list, I keep it short by checking out the specifcations, this one is not going on the short list, but the best way I have of finding current market value is to watch the market. 

Edited by LadyG
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14 minutes ago, LadyG said:

My own circumstances may change any day, I have to be ready to offer straight away, make an offer, pay a deposit and arrange a survey in short order. This is fairly normal.  I am not hassling anyone, just asking for clarification of their wooly descriptions. As it happens, this is the only broker I have ever asked any questions of, and on both occasions have had similar responses, I won't be contacting them again. They invite contact by "chat", and then ask one to phone the broker on site, after agreeing to use email, what is the point of that?

http://www.abcboatsales.com/boat-sales/rochester-anderton-marina/

 

The broker I bought from was a bit crap, but they had the boat I wanted so I dealt with them.

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7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Its only done 126 hrs a year I wonder how much time they spent on it with a washing machine and a deep freeze

 

They seem to think the freezer is a USP. I would prefer anodes! Nevertheless they think it will be snapped up....., and who am I to disagree?

The owner ran out of dark blue paint in the loo, aparently.

Edited by LadyG
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On 12/4/2017 at 08:54, Bee said:

As has been said there are a lot of boats with little, if any paperwork but if the boat is ' one owner' I would expect a heap of photos of the progress of the build. If it has been around a while I would expect photos of 'Us at Marple, us at Coventry' that sort of thing. That is easy enough with a private sale and if the 'owner' had not got a clue about the workings of the boat then it wouldn't take long to suss it out. I've never bought from a broker, I think they are just another level of leech but if the boat you want is sold through a broker theres not much you can do.

To be fair there were photos of the build. 

I do think the owner is the owner - approximately - and I do think it was built where they say, and that he was the owner from new. Which makes it even weirder he would only sign  (unwitnessed) documents which were not legally binding, and refused to sign similar but binding documents even when I offered to pay for all the costs of that and buy him a meal! 

Makes you think there's something like unpaid finace, or the boat might be part of a dicorce settlemet.

Of course, he could siomply be bakrupt and trying to hide earnings, I don't know.

But I *don't* know - and that is, largely, the problem!

Quite annoying as I am doing my best to look at other boats but they are all feeling so underhwelming in comparison to me, it felt like the right one. There will be another, though, I know. What will be will be.

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19 hours ago, LadyG said:

They seem to think the freezer is a USP. I would prefer anodes! Nevertheless they think it will be snapped up....., and who am I to disagree?

The owner ran out of dark blue paint in the loo, aparently.

It looks like a well-appointed boat at a reasonable price. The only thing missing in the description (unless I missed it!) was central heating, but the photos show that it does have it. The woodwork in the saloon looks a bit tatty, and as you say, surely they could have done something about the decor of that vanity unit before photographing it.

USP: user serviceable part? More likely something different, I would guess.

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Proof of ownership has been discussed here many time and the general impression I get, and one that sounds most plausible in my experience, is the provenance.

That is, the independent third party evidence available to support a claim to ownership. Historical documents, such as a collection of old insurance policies (personal no claims discount), or BSS certs, or licence applications, mooring fees, or repairs invoices, etc showing the name and address of the current owner. It should not be too difficult to obtain these  

Or put another way, having researched the documentary evidence, and agreeing to buy the boat, what would you do if suddenly confronted by the 'real' owner appearing from nowhere demanding the boat be returned. Would you meekly hand it back on the strength of them showing you nothing more than an original old bill of sale when they bought it. 

I doubt it, and if you refuse, they will need a court order to force you to return it - which in turn will not be granted without the provenance to support a claim - which is likely to require evidence under sworn oath as well. 

And a comment on the length of your question: My old solicitor, when dealing with a legal dispute, said he loved long letters from the other party, the longer the better. The point being, if there was a cast iron case it could be stated briefly in only one sentence.

Nevertheless - it is caveat emptor. You must rely on your instincts. The decision you make is the one your conscience lives with. Walking away makes sense.  

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13 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Proof of ownership has been discussed here many time and the general impression I get, and one that sounds most plausible in my experience, is the provenance.

That is, the independent third party evidence available to support a claim to ownership. Historical documents, such as a collection of old insurance policies (personal no claims discount), or BSS certs, or licence applications, mooring fees, or repairs invoices, etc showing the name and address of the current owner. It should not be too difficult to obtain these  

Or put another way, having researched the documentary evidence, and agreeing to buy the boat, what would you do if suddenly confronted by the 'real' owner appearing from nowhere demanding the boat be returned. Would you meekly hand it back on the strength of them showing you nothing more than an original old bill of sale when they bought it. 

I doubt it, and if you refuse, they will need a court order to force you to return it - which in turn will not be granted without the provenance to support a claim - which is likely to require evidence under sworn oath as well. 

And a comment on the length of your question: My old solicitor, when dealing with a legal dispute, said he loved long letters from the other party, the longer the better. The point being, if there was a cast iron case it could be stated briefly in only one sentence.

Nevertheless - it is caveat emptor. You must rely on your instincts. The decision you make is the one your conscience lives with. Walking away makes sense.  

Thanks! That's useful.

Well, I wasn't making a legals case, and I'm not now - but my situation could be summed up thus: vendor says one thing but refuses to sign document to the effect that it's true! 

Brief enough? ;-)

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

 

USP: user serviceable part? More likely something different, I would guess.

Unique Selling Point.

To be frank, if the outside paint job was the same as the inside, I would not have looked twice, essentally, its not professionally finished, some bits are fine, some bits are not.

Sorry to hi jack a good thread.

Edited by LadyG
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44 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Sorry to hi jack a good thread.

Well I started it, and I don't mind... :)

I was looking at Rochester, too, anyway, so it's been useful. In fact I've just put down a deposit.

Joke.

I'm leaning away from her really, nothing to do with what's been said, just that I'm not that drawn to her.  Put it this way, she's on my watch list, but keeps nearly getting taken off it.

My problem is, right now, nothing appeals as much as the one I tried to buy!

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We spent nearly 2 yrs looking for 'the right' boat. At the beginning we had in mind exactly what we wanted, length, age , stern etc. but the more we looked the more compromise we made and some of them were very 'dodgy'.  In the end we bought from a broker and, although the boat was older than we really wanted, it had had one owner from new. There were 4 A4 folders of documentation and photos from the day of commissioning to the handover. It included every letter/email and invoice (even one for a swatch of material) and also the boat, although a tad dated to some people, was immaculate inside. We met the owners, who could not have been nicer and so we bought it. Two days later there was a problem with the Invertor so, after contacting the owner for advice,  they sent out an electrician who 'sorted' it. The broker had switched off the isolator underneath the flooring!!!   We asked the electrician how much we owed, his reply? 'Nothing, and the previous owner said if it needs a new Invertor, put one in and I will pay'  We knew then we had bought the right boat. Since then we have spent money improving the boat and replacing some things, our choice, and a year later we are still happy.   We have met and spoken with loads of people who have their stories to tell, some good, some bad,some who bought the first boat they saw with no regrets and some with horrendous stories etc.  People buy houses without surveys, 2nd hand cars without inspections and the same goes with boats although the latter seems a much 'looser' process.  For what it is worth, and whilst I sympathise with your situation, I think you did exactly the right thing.  If you do use the Small Claims Court there are loads of websites with useful information. If you do, and you win, and he doesn't pay within the time scale you have the right to send in the baliffs immediately, don't even hesitate!!!!!!

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Thanks for the reply and helpful input.

It seems buying and selling a flat (both of which I have done this year) is much easier than finding a boat and buying it! I agree completely about not having too clear an idea of what I want - it depends what is out there, there are a few non negotiables (like bridge clearance and draft!), but the rest comes down to a combination of things. For example, I'd probably prefer something wider than a narrow boat (having lived on one - and yes, I did like it!) - but I'm looking ar lots of narrow boats anyway - for my budget they may be a good bet and if one comes along that i like, I will go for it.

This boat was not what I was "looking for" (and, really, trying to find a 45'x9'6" boat would be a mug's game, really, not too many around), but the more I saw of it, the more I liked it.

I'm trying to see if someone can do some digging and find out what th real story is, but I'm not holding my breath, and am very much on the lookout for an alternative - right now, though, everything I have seen appears pretty rubbish (for me) in comparison!

ah well, first world problems!

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