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Fishy boat deal – or paranoid buyer? You decide!


captain flint

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As the cold, damp evenings draw in, light the stove, pull up a seat, and settle down for my tale of boat deal woe*. Told at some length. This is a really, really long post. I enjoyed writing it. But, please, feel free to lose interest and wander off right about now, no offence will be taken...if nobody reads it, or everyone just wants to joke about how long it is, I'll live!

For anyone curious, and who can be bothered, here we go:

Having looked at a lot of boats to live aboard this year, I did eventually find three I was interested in. They were mainly private sales.

The first was a lovely and practical narrow boat with an intriguing and unusual technical set up. I was the second viewing. I missed out as the person who saw it just before me phoned the owner while I was looking around and offered the asking price. I couldn't have found the money to “gazump” them even if had wanted to – but I wouldn't, anyway, nasty business, that. First come first served, I say; fair enough and lucky them.

The second was another narrow boat, unusual as she was completely open plan except the heads at one end. On a narrow beam, I really like that - maybe it works better if you're a singleton like me, but anyway I like it, and I haven't seen it often.

On the viewing, the owner - who said he'd bought it as a sailaway - had
nothing whatsoever in the way of paperwork, didn't know what RCD is, didn't have any receipt for the sailaway even, nothing from the builders, nothing at all except a BSS, and no HIN that we could see or he knew about.

I know some people are happy to buy and sell boats like that, but I decided to tell him I liked his boat but I wasn't the right buyer. He found someone less fussy a few days later, he said, and fair play to them all if that's how they want to do things. They're probably not
likely to have any problems, but rather them than me, frankly.

The third was on a brokerage.

And it was perfect for me.

An unusual boat. A 45' wide beam – but only a
bit wide – 9'6”. Perfect for life on the cut in the Southeast, I think. I don't want a 60 by 11 or 12 foot monster boat (and I can't afford a good one anyway). But a little extra width is nice for living on every day. And this was a little beauty. The independent and personally recommended surveyor I eventually used agreed very strongly. But more about that later.

Unusually for a broader beamed boat, it was not just a “scaled up” narrow boat, but had been properly designed by a pretty well known marine architect who lived up the road from the fabricators who had built it, and, seemingly, advised on its construction. Excellent double chined hull and good welding, and lots of little details like extra sacrificial strakes, that you don't usually see, to keep it in good nick, tidy and dry, the water running off in all the right places.

... And some really nice lines to boot. I know some of you won't believe me, on a broad beam canal boat, but, well,
do.

The fit out – mainly professional – was very solid; nothing fancy, but good materials and had all the essentials. Some creature comforts would need adding, but she was extremely ship shape and tidy, with an immaculate engine, and professionally and simply (ie sensibly!) fitted gas, electrics and kabola heating system.

The décor was ugly as sin – they managed three different shades of brown carpet in the saloon alone! But that stuff is easily rectified. All the serious stuff was great. The bilges in the inspection hatch in the galley, the inside of the long and carefully shaped swim, the engine and engine hole, all looked clean and with no sign of any corrosion whatsoever or even much in the way of dampness.

In fact, she looked hardly used.

In fact she looked... hardly
finished.

The ash T&G panelling was as solid as everything else on the boat. The bedroom and bathroom were fine...although the casette toilet was still in it's box...sure, they took the old one out, before putting it on the market, right?

The galley was solid and functional, but looked like it had been put in without anywhere near the same amount of attention to details or quality materials as the rest of the boat. But that was probably the bit the owner did, so that probably explains that.

And the lounge? A badly fitted carpet and two chairs that looked like they were never sat in.

And nothing else.

Not a single shelf. Nothing. It looked like it had got just about finished then something happened.

I said as much to the guy from the yard who let me in to look at her. He shrugged and said he couldn't see it himself. So I asked the broker, but it wasn't a traditional brokerage with a yard, it was am international one with “territories” - and he'd “inherited” the vessel from the last broker to represent the area he was in. So he couldn't shed much light on it, nor, I think be bothered to chase up my queries. And I didn't manage to establish direct communication with the buyer.

I think I let the fact it was on brokerage lull me. I think I kind of told myself, stop worrying about these little mysteries, there must be reasons for these things. It wasn't a cheap boat by any means, and I felt it was over priced - I haggled hard, and got a big chunk taken off, nearly 25%. We agreed on £50k. I felt I'd done a good job of bargaining, but in the end I think it was still a good price for the owner – I would later see a valuation for £60k from when it was brand new - 2009.

I put down the deposit and got my signed sales agreement. I was excited.

People would occasionally say she's as good as yours now, when are you taking ownership? I kept telling them, the deal's not done 'til it's done. I told
myself that.

But did I listen to myself? Or, instead, did I start dreaming about the life on a boat where I fancied I might spend many years? Have a guess.

Anyway, I got a survey . Glowing. He was really impressed. I also got some legal advice. I know. I know, most people don't, but why not? It's a serious investment, and you might as well know what's what, you can still do what you like and ignore advice if you want.

Last thing before, I thought, transferring the rest of the money, was the water trial. The broker dragged his heals, saying he hadn't realised I wanted one, even though the agreement stipulates the purchaser is due one after the survey. I explained I hadn't been able to see the engine running with the boat under way, we just needed to motor for 20 minutes and see the clutch is alright and the engine behaves ok up to temperature. In the end he met me there, where we would also confirm all the paperwork – he had said it was all on the boat.

The trial was fine. The papers? Not so much.

We found the RCD stuff all present and correct, and a BSC. But nothing about the boat's ownership (or VAT status, for that matter), no receipt for the purchase from the yard (it had had one owner). Nothing. So the broker phoned the vendor, who said he thought it was on the boat, but would look at home. He couldn't find the invoices. Of course, it said on the agreement he'd signed that he would provide documentary evidence of ownership and VAT status.

No problem, though, we all said. The yard where the boat was built is right here. All they need to do is dig up an old invoice and we're good to go.

But no, as the papers were over 6 years old, they'd been put into storage off-site, and the yard wasn't interested in digging them up – although I did offer to pay generously for someone's time and expenses in digging it out of storage, and, it turns out later, the yard itself was taking half the broker's commission in this sale, so they did have a vested interest in getting the deal over the line.

Fair dos, paperwork is annoying. The broker and I agreed that since the vendor was saying VAT was paid and that he owned the boat outright, we would get the lawyer to draw up a declaration saying just what the vendor said - which he could sign and get legally witnessed. I'd give him the money, he'd give me the boat keys, we'd all be happy.

But no. He refused to sign. He sent a two line delcaration of his own devising, with his signature electronically addded – he told us! - by his wife/ And not witnessed by anyone, let alone a Notary Public.

Now, I know I'm very, very square, and that loads of people don't care about this stuff. But I do.

The broker said there was nothing more he could do, but obviously by this time I was out of pocket for the survey and also a few hundred quid of lawyers fees. I asked if he really thought the guy wanted to be chased for the money I'd spent, rather than taking all my money... and all at the same time as having to find another buyer for his over priced boat in the middle of winter? Why not sign? And why the hell had thee broker not checked the papers in the first place?

I was so cross with him for leading me up the garden path like that – if it had been a private sale, I would have found out there were no papers early doors, and sighed, and moved on, no expenses, barely wistful a look over the shoulder.

So I got in touch with the broker's bosses. They tried to get the deal over the line, but ended up saying they too found themsleves thinking that there was indeed something fishy about the deal/ They couldn't work out what, but as a result they had told the vendor they were no longer happy to represent his vessel, and the boat was taken off their books.

Since then, I've been in touch with the owner, in a friendly way – first of all a hand written note to say why don't we meet, I'll buy him a beer or coffee of meal, so we can hear each other's side of the story directly, instead of chinese whispers through the broker? Who knows maybe we could save the deal?

Nothing.

So I've sent another letter saying please get in touch, nobody likes to chase for money, or be chased. And without knowing the whole story, for all I know he's a victim in this, too. But he's not answering. I said that if I didn't hear from him next week I'd have to assume he doesn't want to get in touch (and it was signed for delivery so I know he or his wife have seen it now). I guess the next letter from me will be telling him how much he owes me, probably with a small claims court date attached. Let's see how that goes, I'm not especially optimistic I'll get the money, but it's there in black and white on the agreement he signed that I should.

Really, though, I suspect the ship yard, somehow – some unpaid bills or someone went bust or something. It's guesswork, but that's my gut feeling. But what can I do if nobody even talks to me?

On the one hand I suspect if I'd bought it nothing bad would have happened, and I've had had an unusual boat that might just be exactly right for me.

But on the other hand, I feel like that's a bit like being sad you didn't take the bait on a trap – something, I don't know what, was surely fishy about this, don't you think? Or am I just being paranoid and anal about papers which some are happy not to worry about?

To be honest I'd do the same again, walk away – but I'm curious to know what people think.

If anybody could actually be bothered to read the whole post. I like spinning a yarn, but I don't know how good a job I did here!

*Obviously, we're talking irritation, not actual woe here, I'm well aware that life has worse things in store for all of us than boat deals going wrong!

 

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I believe the broker is at fault here. He should have had sight of the correct paperwork before the boat was advertised. Did he in any way lead you to believe the boat was VAT paid and the vendor had title to it? If so you should speak to the broker about your out of pocket expenses and hope he will be making a contribution to your costs.

Did you pay an initial deposit ? If so what did the  contract signed at that time say about the situation if the vendor should fail to complete the deal  ?

 

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Unfortunately most boats are lacking in some or all documentation, probably because the owner treats it as a hobby, not a piece of property like a house, or a valued investment like a painting.

I have sold 2 boats, and in each case the buyer was surprised that there were any documents, and amazed when he received a full dossier of everything he could possibly need. 

Like you, I would expect everything to be hunky-dory and I would expect the broker to ensure that was the case, particularly verifying that the boat was the property of his client and that it was free of encumbrances, just like a solicitor selling a house.  Unfortunately life is not so simple and the broker will not want to be left holding the baby if owt goes wrong.

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On 03/12/2017 at 21:42, captain flint said:

To be honest I'd do the same again, walk away – but I'm curious to know what people think.

 

I'd have done the same. I'm pretty gung-ho about buying boats with no survey but I DO like to see a sheaf of papers and history. Either that or spend a good few hours on the boat with the seller personally to assess how well he knows the boat with my stream of unpredictable questions.

Trickiness from sellers like you describe make me run a mile however. Same applies with the "intriguing and unusual technical set up" you mention. This screams trouble to me.

Keep looking. There ARE honest and sensible private sellers out there. Same with brokers but they are fewer and rarer so be especially wary when dealing with a broker. Estate agents in drag, most of them. But not all.

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A broker has no legal obligation to ensure that the ’ships papers’ are available - the seller signs a contract with the broker stating that he will provide the papers upon completion.

It sounds to me as if the broker actually went above and beyond what they needed to do.

Buying from a broker gives no more ‘safety’ than a private sale.

Extract from contract (the seller is the owner NOT the broker).

7 Completion

  1. Completion shall take place within [7] days of Acceptance at a location mutually convenient to the parties and preferably in close proximity to the Vessel.  It shall be a condition precedent to Completion that the Broker is in receipt of the full Purchase Price as detailed in Clause 1 and the properly executed original documentation detailed in Clause 7.2.  Immediately upon completion the Seller will give delivery of the Vessel to the Purchaser and will hand over to the Purchaser the Delivery Documents described in Clause 7.2. The parties shall record the time at which Completion occurs by means of a Protocol of Delivery and Acceptance for the purpose of notifying their respective insurers.

    2. The following original Documents shall be prepared by the Seller and held by the Broker in advance of Completion and shall be delivered to the Purchaser on Completion;
    1. Where applicable, an undertaking shall be given by the Seller to the Buyer to delete any Registry entry pertaining to the Vessel

    2. Any delivery order or authority necessary to enable the Purchaser to take immediate possession of the Vessel; and

    3. Where the Seller is a company, certified true copies of the corporate authorities approving this Agreement and appointing the signatories for the Bill of Sale;

    4. An express written declaration by the Seller that at the moment of Completion and delivery to the Purchaser the Vessel is free of all debts, claims and charges of every kind;

    5. Evidence of compliance with the Recreational Craft Directive;

    6. Evidence by way of original or true copy documents, which have been certified as a true copy by practising lawyer, regarding the VAT status of the Vessel including Builder’s invoices, evidence of VAT payment and dates of arrival in the European Community;

    7. The Certificate of Registry in respect of the Vessel, if applicable;

    8. A properly executed Bill of Sale relevant to the Purchaser in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee;

    9. The Builders Certificate and Bill of Sale and all subsequent Bills of Sale in the Seller’s possession relating to the Vessel;

 

Clause 2 is often modified to read : "The following original Documents shall be prepared by the Seller and held by the Seller in advance of Completion and shall be delivered to the Purchaser on Completion"

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I don't think you should have walked away.  Rather, I think you should have run!  If there's a bad smell about a deal, it's far better to be well away from it.  It's really tempting to persevere, particularly if you've fallen for the boat, but your antennae served you well here in my view. Good luck in your continuing search. :)

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Clause 2 is often modified to read : "The following original Documents shall be prepared by the Seller and held by the Seller in advance of Completion and shall be delivered to the Purchaser on Completion"

There's the rub. To be honest, the actual document I signed was between the vendor and myself, the only signatories, so I think the vendor undertook to provide them before/at completion. I'm not sure it stated anything in the papers I saw about who should hold them in advance, It's just something a few people I know whose live revolve around boats say should happen in an ideal world - but, of course, we don't live in an ideal world. I know I made a mistake not checking more thoroughly about this at an earlier juncture - not a mistake I intend to make again!

There was a written declaration about ownership and lacl of encumbrances, etc, but proffered grudgingly and at the last minute and not something that would stand up to any legal scrutiny whatsoever...

Anyway, thanks for your reply and for taking the time to paste that useful info.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I believe the broker is at fault here. He should have had sight of the correct paperwork before the boat was advertised. Did he in any way lead you to believe the boat was VAT paid and the vendor had title to it? If so you should speak to the broker about your out of pocket expenses and hope he will be making a contribution to your costs.

Did you pay an initial deposit ? If so what did the  contract signed at that time say about the situation if the vendor should fail to complete the deal  ?

 

Oh, he did insinuate, early on, that I'd in fact invalidated the terms, strictly speaking, but I set him straight about that and I think he wouldn't have dared to suggest I didn't get the deposit. Unfortunately, the business is unregulated, and I don't think he had an actual obligation to have seen the papers first - and certainly, sadly, no obligation to me. They were quite careful about what they as brokers said and what the vendor signed unilaterally. It did say on a document I received that VAT had been paid - but it was a document prepared by the brokers, but signed only by myself and the vendor. I told the brokers I would accept a declaration from them that they vouched for the boat being fully owned without encumbrances by the vendor. Oddly enough they demurred. 

It does state in the pre sale agreement that in the event of the vendor rescinding due to failure to provide the documents stipulated, the vendor will be liable for any costs the purchaser incurred - in my case an amount I guess the vendor will be as shocked about as I am, about a grand. I used a good surveyor and the lawyer charged several hundred quid as they will. But had he been straight, they would have been my costs, and that was what I was expecting, so he should be careful what he signs, it's possible I'll be issuing a small claims court action against him next week.

If we can avoid that, though, all the better, of course. He would actually, you know, have to get in touch with me though! He has all my contact details and 2 very polite and patient letters from me (I only have his address) just trying to reach out so we can communicate directly before anything like that, as it all seems ridiculous, really. And like I said, I can half imagine he might be a victim in some way here as well, and I might be more flexible than he thinks, depending on the circumstances, but if he doesn't even speak to me, I'm not sure what he expects me to do!

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I believe the broker is at fault here.

Three other people who work in this (2 surveyors, one lawyer who deals with boats) agree - but I think it's more at fault in terms of doing their job "well" as opposed to being actually legally negligent, sadly. 

But it's not great for a brokerage to have customers paying out on surveys for a boat which turns out not to have papers - do it enough and it's not great for reputation, you'd have thought. Caveat emptor in law, I'm sure, but nobody likes being left out of pocket for nothing, and no business owner wants lots of unhappy might-have-been-customers saying unpleasant things about failed deals at their business.

So I did send a letter to the broker's bosses, I'm afraid, saying just that. I wasted a lot of time and money on having had reassurances - but not official, or in writing, or very concrete - that the papers were there. The broker is only guilty of being a bit lazy and complacent and possible naive - but that's not great for the business, you'd have hoped
 

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1 hour ago, Murflynn said:

Unfortunately most boats are lacking in some or all documentation, probably because the owner treats it as a hobby, not a piece of property like a house, or a valued investment like a painting.

I think you're right. Fifty grand though! I remember when you could actually buy a house (down my way) for that. Not so long ago, even. Twenty years, maybe, but still.

There's a part of me that feels if I'd bought the boat, I'd be happy and just forget about the lack of documents. But there's another part which thinks it was fishy, when I know he's been trying to sell it for months, and I've prepared a document for him to sign, saying the same as what it says on his crappy unwitnessed version said. And when I offered to pay for a taxi to and from the lawyers office, and the fee for getting it legally witnessed. And he refuses to sign. Even when he is reminded instead of getting shot of the boat and having 50 grand in his pocket, he'll be stuck with it, in winter, and being chased for one grand. I simply don't believe he would not have signed it, even if 0he thought I was a right idiot for wanting such stuff, unless there was something we don't know about! It just doesn't make any sense to me. But maybe I'm just too suspicious

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Same applies with the "intriguing and unusual technical set up" you mention. This screams trouble to me.

Thanks for your reply, Mike!

As for that unsual boat, it was so wonderful seeming to this newby idiot that I think I should descibe it. She is called Stornoway, made by French & Peel in 1997.

Who? You ask (perhaps). And - hmmm, bit old

They were ship builders, not boat builders, and they must have built it as a kind of one off pet project or something. THe recent survey by Cetec marine which the owner showed me noted several unusual things:

The steel used appears to be in imperial, not metric, thicknesses, indicating marine grade steel, which is never used on narrow boats normally. 2 pack epoxied from new, the base plate read just over 12mm (due to imperial) and almost no pitting.  

The vessel had a lovely (to me), large drop window, the kind that were in vogue briefly with narrow boat builders in the (?)80s - where the gubwhale drops down to accomodate a very large window. The problem with this design is that the gunwhale is strucural, and this drop possibly creates a weak point. However, the survey notes with surprise again that the ultrasound suggested a section of thicker steel used for the cabin side and the window area in general, to counter this, although the joins were not visible to the eye.

But here's the weird part. Her propulsion was via diesel electric. A diesel generator which powers an electric motor. The generator was a large Fischer Panda, in a soundproof box. Very quiet. The electric motor just purred, of course. And the generator gave out a fair whack of power.

Twenty five kilowatts of the stuff.

Well, ok, that's what it gave out nominally, when new. Nowadays maybe a bit less. Still, enough for a whole line of boats. 

I have no doubt that once every 2-7 years the genny would need expensive fixing to the tune of a gran or maybe even two, but it might still be worth it, no? Apparently the system in the boat was used a lot in coastal working boats the French and Peel made.

A gas free boat, and the owner claimed it was the driest he'd ever had, and thought that might be part of the reason

(I'll forward the survey from my email if you like, if that's not in some way inappropriate!)

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7 hours ago, captain flint said:



As for that unusual boat, it was so wonderful seeming to this newby idiot that I think I should descibe it. She is called Stornoway, made by French & Peel in 1997.

Who? You ask (perhaps). And - hmmm, bit old

They were ship builders, not boat builders, and they must have built it as a kind of one off pet project or something. 
 

No, I wouldn't ask "who"? French & Peel did indeed build commercial and seagoing craft, but they built a fair number of canal boats which were noted for their good quality steelwork. There are CWDF members who own, or have owned, them, and who have spoken well of them. I once looked at a graceful tug-style boat of theirs which I considered buying. The firm, which was Yorkshire-based, no longer exists, as Mr. French passed away some three or four years ago. So don't dismiss the boat simply because of the maker's name.

   I am not sure that the dropped gunwale, often used to provide picture windows in hire boats, is a structural problem; it is, however, possible, that it will be a "trip hazard" when you're walking along the side.

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7 hours ago, captain flint said:

Three other people who work in this (2 surveyors, one lawyer who deals with boats) agree - but I think it's more at fault in terms of doing their job "well" as opposed to being actually legally negligent, sadly. 

But it's not great for a brokerage to have customers paying out on surveys for a boat which turns out not to have papers - do it enough and it's not great for reputation, you'd have thought. Caveat emptor in law, I'm sure, but nobody likes being left out of pocket for nothing, and no business owner wants lots of unhappy might-have-been-customers saying unpleasant things about failed deals at their business.

So I did send a letter to the broker's bosses, I'm afraid, saying just that. I wasted a lot of time and money on having had reassurances - but not official, or in writing, or very concrete - that the papers were there. The broker is only guilty of being a bit lazy and complacent and possible naive - but that's not great for the business, you'd have hoped
 

I does  sound like the broker has been deceived. But he became an accessory  to the deceit. The broker should not have allowed the survey to proceed without proof of vat paid and ownership.

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8 hours ago, captain flint said:

I think you're right. Fifty grand though! I remember when you could actually buy a house (down my way) for that. Not so long ago, even. Twenty years, maybe, but still.

There's a part of me that feels if I'd bought the boat, I'd be happy and just forget about the lack of documents. But there's another part which thinks it was fishy, when I know he's been trying to sell it for months, and I've prepared a document for him to sign, saying the same as what it says on his crappy unwitnessed version said. And when I offered to pay for a taxi to and from the lawyers office, and the fee for getting it legally witnessed. And he refuses to sign. Even when he is reminded instead of getting shot of the boat and having 50 grand in his pocket, he'll be stuck with it, in winter, and being chased for one grand. I simply don't believe he would not have signed it, even if 0he thought I was a right idiot for wanting such stuff, unless there was something we don't know about! It just doesn't make any sense to me. But maybe I'm just too suspicious

I don't think you are too suspicious, nor do I blame you for going as far as you did without seeing the papers. Smellls like there's a very big rat somewhere behind the arras. Good luck with both getting your grand back and finding another boat. My guess is either an outstanding loan secured on the boat or disputed ownership post divorce.

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I don't trust certain brokers, one has advertised a boat wih an engine which does not exist [to my knowledge], I queried this and asked for a photo, can't be difficult ~

Having got them to agree to email me, the company sales administrator stepped in and told me to phone the broker onsite. I won't. Wasted my time, and not for the first time. There is no point in having fancy software, but can't deal with a simple sales query. Fair enough to say that information is supplied by the owner, but hey, they cant even get the basic info correct, and don't try to folllow up leads. 

Edited by LadyG
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3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I don't trust certain brokers, one has advertised a boat wih an ngine which does not exist [to my knowledge], I quried this and asked for a photo, having got them to agree to email me, the company sales administrator stepped in and told me to phone the broker onsite. I won't. Wasted my time, and not for the first time. 

Intriguing! Do you mean that it hasn't got an engine, or that it's an unknown make or model?

To be fair on the broker, he probably relies on information supplied to him by the seller.

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5 minutes ago, Athy said:

Intriguing! Do you mean that it hasn't got an engine, or that it's an unknown make or model?

To be fair on the broker, he probably relies on information supplied to him by the seller.

Well known make, unknown model, perhaps if they can't supply a photo there is no engine, but if so, how did it get there?

The boat is at their premises, and I think they took the photos, but none of the engine hole. If indeed, no such model exists then they should have checked, it is not unreasonable to expect them to check that the boat onsite is the one described. 

Edited by LadyG
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4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Well known make, unknown model, perhaps if they can't supply a photo there is no engine! 

The boat is at their premises, and I think they took the photos, but none of the engine hole. 

Unknown model??? To you or the manufacturer? What make and model is being advertised.

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4 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Unknown model??? To you or the manufacturer? What make and model is being advertised.

Unknown to me, certainly a google search does not come up with that model from Beta.

I think, its was Beta 1.5. I have expunged the boat from my "watch list" Regardless, all I did was query the advert and ask them to contact me by email, and I also asked for a photo. I have no interest in phoning them at my expense, I did it once before and got a girl who did not know what a well deck is.

Edited by LadyG
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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Which is why, as the RYA point out in their 'buying guides', the Broker has no legal responsibility for what is claimed in the selling details.

Well I'm sorry, but if the broker can't be bothered to get the basic, checkable facts right, and won't go and check the facts or look at the engine, then I for one won't look at any of his boats. If he can't be bothered to go and take a photo but instead expects me to travel hundreds of miles to look for myself, well its not going to happen.

They can't get out of Sale of Goods Act just by a dubious disclaimer. If I ask a direct question, then it would be reasonable to expect a direct reply.

Edited by LadyG
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17 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I think, its was Beta 1.5. I have expunged the boat from my "watch list" Regardless, all I did was query the advert and ask them to contact me by email, and I also asked for a photo. I have no interest in phoning them at my expense, I did it once before and got a girl who did not know what a well deck is.

Why is a Beta 1.5 suspicious?

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As has been said there are a lot of boats with little, if any paperwork but if the boat is ' one owner' I would expect a heap of photos of the progress of the build. If it has been around a while I would expect photos of 'Us at Marple, us at Coventry' that sort of thing. That is easy enough with a private sale and if the 'owner' had not got a clue about the workings of the boat then it wouldn't take long to suss it out. I've never bought from a broker, I think they are just another level of leech but if the boat you want is sold through a broker theres not much you can do.

  • Greenie 1
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29 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Unknown to me, certainly a google search does not come up with that model from Beta.

I think, its was Beta 1.5. I have expunged the boat from my "watch list" Regardless, all I did was query the advert and ask them to contact me by email, and I also asked for a photo. I have no interest in phoning them at my expense, I did it once before and got a girl who did not know what a well deck is.

The Beta 38 and Beta BV1505 are 1.5 litre engines - the first two are model numbers, the last figure is the cubic capacity.

But their poor response to your enquiries is, as you point out, more important.

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