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Cold weather starting issue


Gareth E

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My Vetus engine starts perfectly during the spring/ summer/autumn. I have an issue during the winter, when the temperature in the engine hole goes below about 10 degrees:

Basically, it fires straight away then for half a second or so tries to gain revs but doesn't manage it. It almost, but not quite, dies. It then barely turns over, regardless of how much throttle I give it. This near death goes for longer, the colder it is. This morning it was for best part of a minute. Eventually the revs will pick up and the engine runs normally.

Thinking this through, I can only guess it's something to do with the heater plugs. As far as I can tell the plugs are only activated before an attempt to start. There's a key position for this, an orange light comes on to confirm. I hold it here for 10-15 seconds before starting the engine. It seems that the plugs are then immediately shut down. I don't know a lot about engines but this doesn't seem to make sense. Shouldn't they stay on for a period?

Any thoughts about this, or other ideas what might be causing the issue? 

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Our training Vetus always insisted on ticking over for a while before starting to rev and I never found out why. It had several different electric fuel pumps over the years and it did not matter how long it was left with the ignition on to allow the system to self bleed it was always the same. I think its a fuel issue, maybe sticky rack/contol rid in the injector pump that would not move until the pump warmed a little but that seems unlikely to me.

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8 minutes ago, Boredrider said:

Is this behaviour coincident with a heavily discharged battery bank?  The alternator(s) could be presenting an immediate and considerable load on the cold engine.

Good suggestion,I modified my 2 75AMP. Alternators so that they wont produce any output until the Engine is above Tickover ,it makes Starting a lot Brisker.

The Crank pulleys are 10 Inch Diameter so the Alts.are otherwise loaded at Cranking speed.

Edited by cereal tiller
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As a precaution, check the engine manual before extending the time to 30 secs. Iirc, Beta recommend 10secs, but no longer than 15 secs for the Beta 43. Vetus may not have such a limitation and I may be out with my timings, but it's worth a look.

  • Greenie 1
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52 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

It seems that the plugs are then immediately shut down. I don't know a lot about engines but this doesn't seem to make sense. Shouldn't they stay on for a period?

Yes - it's worth checking that this is actually happening. Mine's a manual push-button and it makes a huge difference in cold weather if I keep the button down while cranking the engine.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

The starting instructions on a sticker on my boat [ BMC 1500 ] read ; quarter throttle in neutral and heater plugs for 30 seconds. It always bursts into life immediately with a cloud of smoke and sounds like two skeletons having sex on a tin roof for a few seconds.

I know its not a Vetus,but if everything is in good order the starting procedure for most diesels is the same.

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How many cylinders does the Vetus have?

Our M2 on Gamebird displays similar behaviour, in that it will just tick over for 30 seconds or so after first starting from cold, as per Tony's training one. I've never bothered to try to trace the cause, just accepting it as a "feature". 

Can't remember the same happening on the M4 in Copperkins, although it did need heater plugs when the weather was cold.

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16 minutes ago, nb Innisfree said:

I used to run a Peuget 305 desel and after the glowplug light went out it was started but the plugs stayed on for several seconds. 

That is common for probably all modern diesel cars. Its more to do with reducing emissions and diesel knock when cold rather than the actual starting.

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3 hours ago, Furness said:

The starting instructions on a sticker on my boat [ BMC 1500 ] read ; quarter throttle in neutral and heater plugs for 30 seconds. It always bursts into life immediately with a cloud of smoke and sounds like two skeletons having sex on a tin roof for a few seconds.

I know its not a Vetus,but if everything is in good order the starting procedure for most diesels is the same.

Ours doesn't have glow plugs. 

Just give it a bit of throttle and turn the key. Even at this time of year it springs into life at the first turn of the key.

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On 01/12/2017 at 17:29, Gareth E said:

Any thoughts about this, or other ideas what might be causing the issue? 

In the winter the summer grade of diesel may be prone to waxing. I believe  road diesel is supplied a little thinner in the winter to avoid this issue.  Try adding some winter diesel to see if this eases the problem. Or it may be easier to try an anti waxing additive  into the existing diesel ( see below which is not expensive when you consider the dose rate it a bottle may last you a few winters ).

https://www.smithandallan.com/products/agricultural-specialities/2775-smith-and-allan-diesel-fuel-anti-wax-agent/

To be honest it doesn't sound like you have a major issue . 

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Ours doesn't have glow plugs. 

On your engine the is a facility for glow plugs but the glow plugs would have been an optional extra and recommended  for places with colder winters than than UK. 

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7 hours ago, MartynG said:

On your engine the is a facility for glow plugs but the glow plugs would have been an optional extra and recommended  for places with colder winters than than UK. 

I can't be certain you are wrong on this but I find the thought that a marinised truck engine would be anything other than direct injected and apart from small car/an direct injected engines they do not need to have the facility to fit glowplugs. being direct injected explains the easy cold stating.

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My Vetus (M4.17) does seem to start easily, but I do give it a bit of throttle before starting, otherwise it is very erratic and lumpy.  This time of year (~5deg), ten seconds on the heaters is more than adequate, but I set the throttle first to the equivalent of about 1100 rpm, leaving it on this for a minute or two before reving it any higher.

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can't be certain you are wrong on this but I find the thought that a marinised truck engine would be anything other than direct injected and apart from small car/an direct injected engines they do not need to have the facility to fit glowplugs. being direct injected explains the easy cold stating.

It is indeed direct injection with no option for heater plugs. Not sure where Martyn has his info from but it is wrong!

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On 25/12/2017 at 08:34, Naughty Cal said:

It is indeed direct injection with no option for heater plugs. Not sure where Martyn has his info from but it is wrong!

 

On 25/12/2017 at 07:28, Tony Brooks said:

I can't be certain you are wrong on this but I find the thought that a marinised truck engine would be anything other than direct injected and apart from small car/an direct injected engines they do not need to have the facility to fit glowplugs. being direct injected explains the easy cold stating.

Obviously I am wrong about the glow plugs.

The following led me to think there would be  a glow plug option on the kad32 and similar family of engines , (eg an option for us in  Scandinavian countries , or other places where cold climate use is required - not the UK) .

(i)The operators manual mentions glow plugs as an option. (The document covers a range of the Volvo Penta AD and KAD engines) .

(ii) There is a a position ii on the starter key switch for glow plugs. My previous boat hada sticker on the dash with starting instructions allowing for the glow plugs (in fact no glow plugs were fitted).

(iii)There is a light on the engine warning light panel for glow plugs.

(iv)The glow plug has a part number and there is one for sale at the following

https://coastalrides.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=18536

Although I would emphasize again this is  not required for the UK climate. 

I admit the marine parts website is vague on the subject .

https://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7742700-25-1012.aspx

 

By the way I believe the KAD and AD series  Volvo penta engines are not marinised truck engines but developed specifically for marine use but I am probably wrong about that too.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

Obviously I am wrong about the glow plugs.

The following led me to think there would be  a glow plug option on the kad32 and similar family of engines , (eg an option for us in  Scandinavian countries , or other places where cold climate use is required - not the UK) .

(i)The operators manual mentions glow plugs as an option. (The document covers a range of the Volvo Penta AD and KAD engines) .

(ii) There is a a position ii on the starter key switch for glow plugs. My previous boat hada sticker on the dash with starting instructions allowing for the glow plugs (in fact no glow plugs were fitted).

(iii)There is a light on the engine warning light panel for glow plugs.

(iv)The glow plug has a part number and there is one for sale at the following

https://coastalrides.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=18536

Although I would emphasize again this is  not required for the UK climate. 

I admit the marine parts website is vague on the subject .

https://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/volvo-penta-explodedview-7742700-25-1012.aspx

 

By the way I believe the KAD and AD series  Volvo penta engines are not marinised truck engines but developed specifically for marine use but I am probably wrong about that too.

 

 

Looks like an air intake heater to me rather than a combustion chamber heater plug.  Definitely I'd say.

Edited by bizzard
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whatever the technical explanation, I have found that most industrial diesels do just that in cold weather - clonk noisily for anything from 20 seconds to 5 minutes, then suddenly burst into song.

watching twelve Cat 583 side booms, lined up along the pipeline, struggling to start on a cold November morning is the essence of nostalgia for me.  One by one they would stop stuttering while kicking out white smoke, and roar into life, adding to the harmonic dawn orchestra - better than the birds' dawn chorus any day.

 

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