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How Many Straws To Break The Camel’s Back ?


Alan de Enfield

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How Many Straws To Break The Camel’s Back ?

When you look at each ‘straw’ in isolation, you think “that’s not so bad, it’s inconvenient but I can live with it”, but when you sit back and take an overall view its surprising what changes are happening, or due to happen, that have / will have a big impact on boaters :

Overnight Mooring charges of £25

Overnight mooring charges of £200

Increasing number of stoppages, including some with no known re-opening dates

Increasing backlog of maintenance work – now many, many thousands of faults failing to be attended to.

Licence fees increasing – particularly for ‘fatties’

C&RT asking Marinas to ‘spy’ on their boats and report to C&RT when they leave the marina

C&RT applying CCing rules to Home moorers

Boaters must leave 16 feet between boats when mooring to allow fishermen access – even on established visitors moorings with limited spaces

Painting 'Duck-Lanes' and signs saying "don't mention Orange sauce, it frightens the ducks".

And many, many more, you could almost be forgiven for thinking that C&RT don’t want boats on their waterways.

 

It makes me glad that I am able to spend more and more time on ‘un-regulated’ waters, with no requirements for a licence, BSS or even insurance.

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40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

How Many Straws To Break The Camel’s Back ?

When you look at each ‘straw’ in isolation, you think “that’s not so bad, it’s inconvenient but I can live with it”, but when you sit back and take an overall view its surprising what changes are happening, or due to happen, that have / will have a big impact on boaters :

Overnight Mooring charges of £25

Overnight mooring charges of £200

Increasing number of stoppages, including some with no known re-opening dates

Increasing backlog of maintenance work – now many, many thousands of faults failing to be attended to.

Licence fees increasing – particularly for ‘fatties’

C&RT asking Marinas to ‘spy’ on their boats and report to C&RT when they leave the marina

C&RT applying CCing rules to Home moorers

Boaters must leave 16 feet between boats when mooring to allow fishermen access – even on established visitors moorings with limited spaces

Painting 'Duck-Lanes' and signs saying "don't mention Orange sauce, it frightens the ducks".

And many, many more, you could almost be forgiven for thinking that C&RT don’t want boats on their waterways.

 

It makes me glad that I am able to spend more and more time on ‘un-regulated’ waters, with no requirements for a licence, BSS or even insurance.

In principle I'd agree but what is the source of your list?

To comment on each...

Overnight Mooring charges of £25 - I assume you mean the overstay "charge" so no £25 for the first night

Overnight mooring charges of £200 - where? Or is this a more punative overstay "charge"

Increasing number of stoppages, including some with no known re-opening dates - sometimes that does depress me, but I'm not convinced it's entirely CRT's fault, their budget is some way short of maintaining the waterways in steady state, even if they paid no office staff and spend the money on nothing else

Increasing backlog of maintenance work – now many, many thousands of faults failing to be attended to. - see above

Licence fees increasing – particularly for ‘fatties’ - that's a concern, especially as it isn't easy to avoid it when it becomes unaffordable: not sure what CRT will do if suddenly 20% of boaters just don't pay because they can't

C&RT asking Marinas to ‘spy’ on their boats and report to C&RT when they leave the marina - I know they considered this in the 1990's when they were obliged to accept boats with no home mooring, but is this real or just the paranoid grapevine?

C&RT applying CCing rules to Home moorers - they are getting a bit norty on this, especially home moorers who can't get home because of a water shortage (me, this summer)

Boaters must leave 16 feet between boats when mooring to allow fishermen access – even on established visitors moorings with limited spaces - where they say this then? 

Painting 'Duck-Lanes' and signs saying "don't mention Orange sauce, it frightens the ducks". - I suspect that is the initiative of one idiotic marketing bod who one day will go to far with a risque pun...

And many, many more, you could almost be forgiven for thinking that C&RT don’t want boats on their waterways. - Blagdon Water, Devon, you can rent a canal boat that can't go anywhere for your holiday - are you suggesting  this is the model for the future?

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32 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

In principle I'd agree but what is the source of your list?

To comment on each...

Overnight Mooring charges of £25 - I assume you mean the overstay "charge" so no £25 for the first night  Yes

Overnight mooring charges of £200 - where? Or is this a more punative overstay "charge"  Yes

Increasing number of stoppages, including some with no known re-opening dates - sometimes that does depress me, but I'm not convinced it's entirely CRT's fault, their budget is some way short of maintaining the waterways in steady state, even if they paid no office staff and spend the money on nothing else

Increasing backlog of maintenance work – now many, many thousands of faults failing to be attended to. - see above This Winter they plan to spend £7m less than last Winter, which itself was less than the previous Winter

Licence fees increasing – particularly for ‘fatties’ - that's a concern, especially as it isn't easy to avoid it when it becomes unaffordable: not sure what CRT will do if suddenly 20% of boaters just don't pay because they can't

C&RT asking Marinas to ‘spy’ on their boats and report to C&RT when they leave the marina - I know they considered this in the 1990's when they were obliged to accept boats with no home mooring, but is this real or just the paranoid grapevine? C&RT  press release 29/11/17 "CANAL & RIVER TRUST ROLLS OUT MOORING VALIDATION SCHEME"

C&RT applying CCing rules to Home moorers - they are getting a bit norty on this, especially home moorers who can't get home because of a water shortage (me, this summer)

Boaters must leave 16 feet between boats when mooring to allow fishermen access – even on established visitors moorings with limited spaces - where they say this then?  Winter Mooring Rules "If the Winter Mooring Site is in a location regularly used by anglers, you should leave at least 5m between your boat and the next one along to allow space for fishing. You must be prepared to move temporarily to facilitate match pegging."

Painting 'Duck-Lanes' and signs saying "don't mention Orange sauce, it frightens the ducks". - I suspect that is the initiative of one idiotic marketing bod who one day will go to far with a risque pun...

And many, many more, you could almost be forgiven for thinking that C&RT don’t want boats on their waterways. - Blagdon Water, Devon, you can rent a canal boat that can't go anywhere for your holiday - are you suggesting  this is the model for the future?

Additions in 'red'

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Whilst I agree that the new Validation Scheme is 'interesting' (shall we say!) it does seem that as it stands you have over-stated the case:

What the press release says is:

(a) it has already been trialled with the cooperation of AWCC and British Marine.

(b) CaRT provides info to the mooring operator who then reviews it - the scheme only applies to

    (1) boats seen in a marina but who have not declared it as a home mooring - this, of course, my well be entirely legitimate, say for short term visitor mooring

    (2) boats who have declared a home mooring there but are not present at the time of the CaRT check (which CaRT are already entitled to do)

(c) it is an opt-in scheme at least at this stage (ie the operator is not obliged to receive the data

(d) no suggestion that the operator has to report when a boat leaves a marina, in the sense of going out boating. There is an implication about what might happen if the boat leaves in the sense of giving up its home mooring. The scheme as described only applies after Cart have conducted an inspection of the boats in the marina.

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Adam at the firm PB Mechanical in Adlington told me yesterday  that he has decided to sell his large boat lift crane. This is because C&RT  have imposed a huge fee to them per lift which now makes the whole exercise uneconomic.  In addition they have now insisted on an outragously expensive ground survey on their old wharf. The crane has been happily lifting boats from here for years.

Yet more boater facilities going!

 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Boaters must leave 16 feet between boats when mooring to allow fishermen access – even on established visitors moorings with limited spaces, everywhere?? i have only seen mention of this once!

Painting 'Duck-Lanes' and signs saying "don't mention Orange sauce, it frightens the ducks". No bother or hinder to a boater though is it?

And many, many more.... can you list many many more?

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Peter-Bullfinch said:

Adam at the firm PB Mechanical in Adlington told me yesterday  that he has decided to sell his large boat lift crane. This is because C&RT  have imposed a huge fee to them per lift which now makes the whole exercise uneconomic.  In addition they have now insisted on an outragously expensive ground survey on their old wharf. The crane has been happily lifting boats from here for years.

Yet more boater facilities going!

 

Would be interesting to know some of the detail. I assume that the space is leased from CaRT so this is a matter of the commercial arrangement between landlord and tenant.

The second item is likely to be a result of a Risk Assessment in the context of H&S and could either be a new contract manager throwing his/her weight around or be the result of updating to current H&S expectations.

The first item looks like (but it would be interesting to know) an example of CaRT seeking to get the best return on its leases which, in principle, is something that we ought to applaud, but sometimes one side of a commercial arrangement (esp one that thinks they hold all the shots) pushes its luck too far and then can be left with egg on face. Would not be the first time . . .

In general I am aware that CaRT have been gradually trying to update their commercial practices - a couple of years ago they found that BW had not updated its charges to commercial operators for water in/out and that they could up the charges quite considerably. Given that some tenants that have been around for some time may well be working at the margins of either regulatory or commercial considerations this will always/often create issues for them. (Too many accident reports start with But we've always done it that way . . . )

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If this is to start comment on new ideas of raising funds to provide a viable waterways cruising network that is to accommodate  current issues such as the mooring time limits and wide boats,  how about an annual inclusive license fee to 'cruise-and-moor-for-as-long-as-you-like' or CAMFALAYL (not another acronym, but to save me typing out in full) based on a fixed cost with a length multiple and new width factor per boat, then an additional charge based on unlimited mooring with a discount for the number of days not cruising per year - traceable to and justified by having a home mooring. 

All coupled to a CRT commitment to provide the CAMFALAYL  facilities to enable this to happen.

With modern data gathering facilities and statistical analysis and computers it should nor be too difficult to arrive at a viable, easily understandable, measurable (and controllable) formula. 

 

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Mike, I was told a lot more but I felt I shouldn't share the financial details in this public forum. I believe, but am unsure now, that this is private site and not leased and the charges are because the water the boat is lifted from and to belongs to C&RT . They are not making charges for lifting engines etc to and from boats.

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20 minutes ago, Peter-Bullfinch said:

Mike, I was told a lot more but I felt I shouldn't share the financial details in this public forum. I believe, but am unsure now, that this is private site and not leased and the charges are because the water the boat is lifted from and to belongs to C&RT . They are not making charges for lifting engines etc to and from boats.

Ta but the principle stays the same ie that CaRT are seeking to maximise the income from all non-boater sources, especially as the rate of licence fee increases have been pegged.

I notice that they refer to the issue on their web site - I don't know how recently that has been updated but has it been going on for some while?

I would also imagine that CaRT have a legitimate interest in the construction of the pad since they do not want a crane toppling in to their canal! Operating cranes commercially is not for the faint hearted . . . 

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I would imagine that you can't always specify a stoppage ending date until the whole problem has been analysed. With an ancient system like ours, which has a fair few undocumented bits and pieces attached, that's always going to be the case - no different from the dates a boatyard gives you for the repair of your boat which usually seem to stretch beyond the limits of possibility.

I've never run into (yet) any demands for £25 a night for mooring, and I seem to recall they were on Council owned sites, not CRT.  But as no-one whinged when Llangollen started charging (which is when it should have been nipped in the bud), it's only a matter of scale anyway.

CC rules for home moorers seem to be unenforceable by law anyway, but will hardly affect anyone, apart from those affected by stoppages, who isn't trying to game the system.

My own view is that the system is on its last legs and slowly creaking its way to being unfixable.  A tunnel collapse, a few more lock flights or embankments falling to bits and the money simply won't be there for repairs.  It'll be left to the fishermen, the cyclists and the supermarket trolleys.  Revel in it while it's there, I reckon, be thankful it's lasted this long and enjoy it while we can.  It wasn't built for us - we're the lucky ones playing games on the backs of workers and navvies long gone.

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4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Whilst I agree that the new Validation Scheme is 'interesting' (shall we say!) it does seem that as it stands you have over-stated the case:

What the press release says is:

(a) it has already been trialled with the cooperation of AWCC and British Marine.

(b) CaRT provides info to the mooring operator who then reviews it - the scheme only applies to

    (1) boats seen in a marina but who have not declared it as a home mooring - this, of course, my well be entirely legitimate, say for short term visitor mooring

    (2) boats who have declared a home mooring there but are not present at the time of the CaRT check (which CaRT are already entitled to do)

(c) it is an opt-in scheme at least at this stage (ie the operator is not obliged to receive the data

(d) no suggestion that the operator has to report when a boat leaves a marina, in the sense of going out boating. There is an implication about what might happen if the boat leaves in the sense of giving up its home mooring. The scheme as described only applies after Cart have conducted an inspection of the boats in the marina.

My first thoughts were to try to find as many ghost moorers as possible.

 

Not that I know what they could then do.

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2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I would imagine that you can't always specify a stoppage ending date until the whole problem has been analysed. With an ancient system like ours, which has a fair few undocumented bits and pieces attached, that's always going to be the case - no different from the dates a boatyard gives you for the repair of your boat which usually seem to stretch beyond the limits of possibility.

I've never run into (yet) any demands for £25 a night for mooring, and I seem to recall they were on Council owned sites, not CRT.  But as no-one whinged when Llangollen started charging (which is when it should have been nipped in the bud), it's only a matter of scale anyway.

CC rules for home moorers seem to be unenforceable by law anyway, but will hardly affect anyone, apart from those affected by stoppages, who isn't trying to game the system.

My own view is that the system is on its last legs and slowly creaking its way to being unfixable.  A tunnel collapse, a few more lock flights or embankments falling to bits and the money simply won't be there for repairs.  It'll be left to the fishermen, the cyclists and the supermarket trolleys.  Revel in it while it's there, I reckon, be thankful it's lasted this long and enjoy it while we can.  It wasn't built for us - we're the lucky ones playing games on the backs of workers and navvies long gone.

I agree with your viewpoint Arthur, we have been incredibly fortunate to enjoy the second age of the canals ( thanks to Barbera Castle, god bless her ) but without huge amounts of investment that is never going to come from government things are going to slowly get worse. It’s a real shame and we sold our boat, for various reasons, including this, a couple of years ago. I wish it were otherwise, but no one is going to inject the millions of pounds needed to restore the system to even the status of three or four years ago.

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2 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I would imagine that you can't always specify a stoppage ending date until the whole problem has been analysed. With an ancient system like ours, which has a fair few undocumented bits and pieces attached, that's always going to be the case - no different from the dates a boatyard gives you for the repair of your boat which usually seem to stretch beyond the limits of possibility.

I've never run into (yet) any demands for £25 a night for mooring, and I seem to recall they were on Council owned sites, not CRT.  But as no-one whinged when Llangollen started charging (which is when it should have been nipped in the bud), it's only a matter of scale anyway.

CC rules for home moorers seem to be unenforceable by law anyway, but will hardly affect anyone, apart from those affected by stoppages, who isn't trying to game the system.

My own view is that the system is on its last legs and slowly creaking its way to being unfixable.  A tunnel collapse, a few more lock flights or embankments falling to bits and the money simply won't be there for repairs.  It'll be left to the fishermen, the cyclists and the supermarket trolleys.  Revel in it while it's there, I reckon, be thankful it's lasted this long and enjoy it while we can.  It wasn't built for us - we're the lucky ones playing games on the backs of workers and navvies long gone.

Nabo 'whinged' when Llangollen stated that there would be charging but they were a lone voice. Apathy reigns

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8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT asking Marinas to ‘spy’ on their boats and report to C&RT when they leave the marina

Asking marinas to (voluntarily) verify the boat names and index numbers of boat holds a mooring with them - yes. 

Reporting every time when a boat goes out - no.

Not sure I have any objection to that as I have already informed C&RT where I keep my boat so its not exactly a secret.

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Asking marinas to (voluntarily) verify the boat names and index numbers of boat holds a mooring with them - yes. 

Reporting every time when a boat goes out - no.

Not sure I have any objection to that as I have already informed C&RT where I keep my boat so its not exactly a secret.

How many marinas have the staff/desire to spend the man hours monitoring the comings and goings of every boat?

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8 hours ago, Jerra said:

How many marinas have the staff/desire to spend the man hours monitoring the comings and goings of every boat?

Ours have a camera on the entrance so if asked can provide footage of boats entering and leaving the marina. 

Does it bother me no. We licence our boat and insure it and test it. We have nothing to hide.

It strikes me that some people read far too much into some situations and if the new situation bothers them that much then it is perhaps time for them to move on and either find waters new, but what is to say the situation will be any better there?, or perhaps move on completely and find a whole new passtime or way of life. 

Times move on and quite frankly the current set of new "rules" that seem to be bothering some have only come about due to a small percentage of boaters who have decided to try and play the game and stretch the boundaries. So we only have those few to blame. CRT and other authorities are trying their best with what limited resources they have. 

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5 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Ours have a camera on the entrance so if asked can provide footage of boats entering and leaving the marina. 

Does it bother me no. We licence our boat and insure it and test it. We have nothing to hide.

It strikes me that some people read far too much into some situations and if the new situation bothers them that much then it is perhaps time for them to move on and either find waters new, but what is to say the situation will be any better there?, or perhaps move on completely and find a whole new passtime or way of life. 

Times move on and quite frankly the current set of new "rules" that seem to be bothering some have only come about due to a small percentage of boaters who have decided to try and play the game and stretch the boundaries. So we only have those few to blame. CRT and other authorities are trying their best with what limited resources they have. 

I would agree totally.  Even with the aid of CCTV somebody is going to have to spend quite a lot of time extracting the required data, whether it is the marina staff or CRT.

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19 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

How Many Straws To Break The Camel’s Back ?

When you look at each ‘straw’ in isolation, you think “that’s not so bad, it’s inconvenient but I can live with it”, but when you sit back and take an overall view its surprising what changes are happening, or due to happen, that have / will have a big impact on boaters :

Overnight Mooring charges of £25

Overnight mooring charges of £200

Increasing number of stoppages, including some with no known re-opening dates

Increasing backlog of maintenance work – now many, many thousands of faults failing to be attended to.

Licence fees increasing – particularly for ‘fatties’

C&RT asking Marinas to ‘spy’ on their boats and report to C&RT when they leave the marina

C&RT applying CCing rules to Home moorers

Boaters must leave 16 feet between boats when mooring to allow fishermen access – even on established visitors moorings with limited spaces

Painting 'Duck-Lanes' and signs saying "don't mention Orange sauce, it frightens the ducks".

And many, many more, you could almost be forgiven for thinking that C&RT don’t want boats on their waterways.

 

It makes me glad that I am able to spend more and more time on ‘un-regulated’ waters, with no requirements for a licence, BSS or even insurance.

I don't believe they do want boats on their waterways. To get rid of them would be an absolute social disaster and CRT know that. But I really think that CRT see boats as an evil that they have to put up with, at least for the time being.

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The OP mentioned that it's almost as if C&RT don't want boats on their waters.

Well having been a CC'er for many years and travelled a lot, I'm seeing less and less boats moving. I'm seeing less boats moored up at what used to be popular moorings (all this despite more marinas popping up all of the time. .

I'm seeing more and more 'threatening' signs. I'm seeing more and more issues with the infrastructure. I'm seeing C&RT put more and more emphasis on non- boating related activities. I'm seeing more and more checkers writing down boat numbers as if we are all potential naughty boys/girls.

C&RT are run more like a buisness than a charity and continue to have very few staff in management  with a boating background, No wonder they aren't interested in boats being on their waters. Boaters don't even provide the majority of their budget. 

What is needed is people with the same grit and spirit who restored the waterways in the first place. We need people actively keeping the network alive. How much punch do we have as boaters now? How much is achieved by whinging on an Internet forum? 

Ideally boating organisations should be the outlet for addressing these issues, so what's' going wrong there?

Use it or lose it. Is it not the case that less of us are taking boats out for trips and are quite happy leaving the boat tied up in a marina? Are most boats being used as a man/lady cave now, or just a nice thing to own and show off occasionally.  

Yes, I know all this might seem a touch cynical and negative, but is it really all C&RT's fault? Could it also be that there is less interest in travelling around the network on a boat than there used to be? After all we can watch people do it on TV!

 

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34 minutes ago, rowland al said:

(snip)

Use it or lose it. Is it not the case that less of us are taking boats out for trips and are quite happy leaving the boat tied up in a marina? Are most boats being used as a man/lady cave now, or just a nice thing to own and show off occasionally.  

Yes, I know all this might seem a touch cynical and negative, but is it really all C&RT's fault? Could it also be that there is less interest in travelling around the network on a boat than there used to be? After all we can watch people do it on TV!

Harking back thirty years, as I do, it may simply be that more or less the same number of boats are moving about most of the system as there ever were, but there are an awful lot more boats tied up in marinas.  Certainly half the boats on my small mooring hardly ever move, and most only for a week or two in a year.   I think you are right, most boats are bought on a whim or under the TV influence, and then the owners discover that it's often cold and wet out there, the kids are bored and their partners don't like it much either.

You can't blame CRT for being run like a business, as that's what it is.  And on a shoestring they have to keep walkers, cyclists, fishermen happy as well as conservationists and us - that makes us a definite minority, and the one that costs them the most in maintaining the system.  Businesswise, it's a no-brainer.  What with fielding complaints about air & noise pollution from overstaying liveaboards (it only takes one, after all - I'm not tagging everyone with the same brush!), you can at least partly see their point.  And as almost no-one in authority in this country gives a toss about anything that happens outside London,  the state of the vast bulk of the system is irrelevant to them - and so are we.

 

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11 hours ago, MartynG said:

Asking marinas to (voluntarily) verify the boat names and index numbers of boat holds a mooring with them - yes. 

Reporting every time when a boat goes out - no.

Not sure I have any objection to that as I have already informed C&RT where I keep my boat so its not exactly a secret.

I think the info cart is after is more like "from 01/01/2018 boat name dragonfly, index No 123456 no longer has a home mooring within this marina" where a boat has left permanently rather than being notified every time a boat leaves for a trip.

possibly a bad choice of wording where "leaves the marina" can have a couple of interpretations

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13 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Harking back thirty years, as I do, it may simply be that more or less the same number of boats are moving about most of the system as there ever were, but there are an awful lot more boats tied up in marinas.  Certainly half the boats on my small mooring hardly ever move, and most only for a week or two in a year.   I think you are right, most boats are bought on a whim or under the TV influence, and then the owners discover that it's often cold and wet out there, the kids are bored and their partners don't like it much either.

You can't blame CRT for being run like a business, as that's what it is.  And on a shoestring they have to keep walkers, cyclists, fishermen happy as well as conservationists and us - that makes us a definite minority, and the one that costs them the most in maintaining the system.  Businesswise, it's a no-brainer.  What with fielding complaints about air & noise pollution from overstaying liveaboards (it only takes one, after all - I'm not tagging everyone with the same brush!), you can at least partly see their point.  And as almost no-one in authority in this country gives a toss about anything that happens outside London,  the state of the vast bulk of the system is irrelevant to them - and so are we.

 

I agree with this. In my time and I have been oopnorrf and darn saarf on the system I have never been given a levy of £25 a night to moor, there are hundreds of miles of places to moor without anything but the normal 14 days for free rule. I think rose tinted specs or something are coming into play re conditions of the cut as much of the areas I have used such as The Coventry to name just one are in way better condition than when I moved onto my first boat at ansty in 89 with the bottom being very near the top and numerous uncountable amounts of rubbish, three piece suites and cars int cut. I am buzzing off downt to Bristol starting in march then we will nip up to York and I don't envisage many problems on the way.

6 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

I think the info cart is after is more like "from 01/01/2018 boat name dragonfly, index No 123456 no longer has a home mooring within this marina" where a boat has left permanently rather than being notified every time a boat leaves for a trip.

possibly a bad choice of wording where "leaves the marina" can have a couple of interpretations

Yes and whats the big deal with CART knowing where I have hidden 68 feet of boat? Why do people care that CART want to know where their boat is? I don't care a hoot simply comply with the few very easy rules and I get nowt but assistance from CART.

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