How Many Straws To Break The Camel’s Back ?

[rowland al]

I've been trying to think of some real charitable elements to C&RT.

They are trying to keep the network open for all to enjoy. Those who have fallen on hard times can still get to enjoy it without having to pay. How long may that continue? 

 

[rowland al]

7 minutes ago, MJG said:

Possibly, but then would you have prefered them not to get any and be run by a private company to boot? You'd sharp have something to complain about then I would wager.

 

I didn't say the tax breaks were a bad thing did I? Well provided there is accountability in how those tax breaks are used! 

Maybe the powers that could be could make up a different word to charity for this type of organisation  so it's less misleading. Not sure what though, although isn't 'public trust' enough on it's own?  

 

[MtB]

On 09/12/2017 at 11:21, rowland al said:

I've been trying to think of some real charitable elements to C&RT.

They are trying to keep the network open for all to enjoy. Those who have fallen on hard times can still get to enjoy it without having to pay. How long may that continue? 

 

 

The public at large enjoy having waterways available for recreation, i.e. to cycle alongside, walk their dogs, birdwatching, a bit of angling. This is the 'public benefit'. Nothing to do with boating, silly. 

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, rowland al said:

I've been trying to think of some real charitable elements to C&RT.

What is your perception of 'charitable' ?

[MtB]

Only lucky rich people can afford a boat, obviously.

[rowland al]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

What is your perception of 'charitable' ?

Probably the same as the dictionary definition. Not a load of legalistic spin.

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The public at large enjoy having waterways available for recreation, i.e. to cycle alongside, walk their dogs, birdwatching, a bit of angling. This is the 'public benefit'. Nothing to do with boating, silly. 

Exactly, I wasn't actually thinking of boating as everyone is expected to pay their way there, silly.

[rasputin]

Is it not as simple as, a charity is an business or organisation that has to re invest any profits made, back into the company. It is not there to make money for share holders or owners. 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, rowland al said:

I didn't say the tax breaks were a bad thing did I?

I didn't say you did, I asked you for your preference.

47 minutes ago, rowland al said:

I've been trying to think of some real charitable elements to C&RT.

Why? As I already explained they dont have to have any in the altruistic sense. 

If you try to mould them into the likes of Age UK or the RSPCA you are simply wasting your energy and time.

[rowland al]

20 minutes ago, MJG said:

I didn't say you did, I asked you for your preference.

Why? As I already explained they dont have to have any in the altruistic sense. 

If you try to mould them into the likes of Age UK or the RSPCA you are simply wasting your energy and time.

I probably am wasting energy and time, but it's still possible that the few true charitable aims they have will disappear. I wouldn't want that. 

[MtB]

On 09/12/2017 at 12:05, rasputin said:

Is it not as simple as, a charity is an business or organisation that has to re invest any profits made, back into the company. It is not there to make money for share holders or owners. 

 

No, I think there is such a thing as a "not for profit" organisation too, which is not necessarily a charity. 

[MtB]

Oxford Dictionary:

charity

NOUN

1 An organization set up to provide help and raise money for those in need.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/charity

By this dictionary definition CRT is not a charity.

This is where the difficulty lies. Why do we think they are a charity? Where does it say they are?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is where the difficulty lies. Why do we think they are a charity? Where does it say they are?

The legal definition is not as specific. If you want to make them fit the dictionary definition then you will fail.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/what-makes-a-charity-cc4/what-makes-a-charity-cc4

Descriptions of 'purpose' of a charity include.

(f) the advancement of the arts, culture, heritage or science

(i) the advancement of environmental protection or improvement

All of which cover what CRT aim to do.

[MtB]

On 09/12/2017 at 12:59, MJG said:

All of which cover what CRT aim to do.

 

They may claim to do those things but do they claim to be a charity ?

If so, I've not noticed. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They may claim to do those things but do they claim to be a charity ?

If so, I've not noticed. 

Apologies I misunderstood the framing of your question.

Here.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us

We are a charity, here to protect over 2,000 miles of waterways in England and Wales. We're custodians of a rich, living history but we look forwards to a brighter, better future too.

and

As a charity we rely on our supporters and a passionate team of staff and volunteers. We’re working together to create better, more open spaces, breathing new life into our canals and rivers. And that means joining forces with the communities who live and work around our waterways.

Edited December 9, 2017 by MJG

[Momac]

21 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Why do we think they are a charity? Where does it say they are?

 

http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1146792&subid=0

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, rowland al said:

, but it's still possible that the few true charitable aims they have will disappear. I wouldn't want that. 

If you read the link I posted you will see they are legally required to have true charitable aims. If they lose them they will lose their charitable status.

To re-affirm 'true charitable aims' as defined by the charities act do not have to be associated with the same type of 'charitable aims' other charities like Shelter or Oxfam would have.

[Teasel]

You can find the charitable objects in the articles of association here - https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1338.pdf

The first one is for navigation:

2. Objects The Trust’s objects are:

2.1 to preserve, protect, operate and manage Inland Waterways for public benefit:

2.1.1 for navigation;

2.1.2 for walking on towpaths; and

2.1.3 for recreation or other leisure-time pursuits of the public in the interest of their health and social welfare;

[Alan de Enfield]

35 minutes ago, Teasel said:

You can find the charitable objects in the articles of association here - https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1338.pdf

The first one is for navigation:

2. Objects The Trust’s objects are:

2.1 to preserve, protect, operate and manage Inland Waterways for public benefit:

2.1.1 for navigation;

2.1.2 for walking on towpaths; and

2.1.3 for recreation or other leisure-time pursuits of the public in the interest of their health and social welfare;

Already quoted 37 posts ago - but that's not enough for some folks, they appear to want C&RT to provide free accommodation, food banks and free transport to the hospital etc. -  as apparently that's the sort of thing (according to a Dictionary) that a charity does.

[rowland al]

40 minutes ago, Teasel said:

You can find the charitable objects in the articles of association here - https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1338.pdf

The first one is for navigation:

2. Objects The Trust’s objects are:

2.1 to preserve, protect, operate and manage Inland Waterways for public benefit:

2.1.1 for navigation;

2.1.2 for walking on towpaths; and

2.1.3 for recreation or other leisure-time pursuits of the public in the interest of their health and social welfare;

Let's hope they honour those objectives. 

[Teasel]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Already quoted 37 posts ago

Saw that after I'd posted it - my apologies. Interestingly, the definition of 'navigation' in the defined terms on p39:

'includes navigation by any ship or boat used for the carriage of freight and by any ship or boat used also for human habitation;'

So whilst I would not suggest CRT need to provide food banks, lifts to hospital etc.. (although a number of their 'powers' would allow them to - see in particular 3.5; 3.24; and 3.32) it seems they should make it possible to live on the waterways - as a part of their charitable purpose. So that means  bins/ services I guess, and a reasonable approach to their guidelines where it affects liveaboards. They do also state that one of their purposes is to:

2.6  'promote sustainable development in the vicinity of any Inland Waterway for the benefit of the public, in particular by:

2.6.1 the improvement of the conditions of life in socially and economically disadvantaged communities in such vicinity;' 

So I guess a lot of boating families or individuals (or other 'household' group types) may fit into that purpose. 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Teasel said:

Saw that after I'd posted it - my apologies. Interestingly, the definition of 'navigation' in the defined terms on p39:

'includes navigation by any ship or boat used for the carriage of freight and by any ship or boat used also for human habitation;'

So whilst I would not suggest CRT need to provide food banks, lifts to hospital etc.. (although a number of their 'powers' would allow them to - see in particular 3.5; 3.24; and 3.32) it seems they should make it possible to live on the waterways - as a part of their charitable purpose. So that means  bins/ services I guess, and a reasonable approach to their guidelines where it affects liveaboards. They do also state that one of their purposes is to:

2.6  'promote sustainable development in the vicinity of any Inland Waterway for the benefit of the public, in particular by:

2.6.1 the improvement of the conditions of life in socially and economically disadvantaged communities in such vicinity;' 

So I guess a lot of boating families or individuals (or other 'household' group types) may fit into that purpose. 

Did you also note that the trustees are PERSONALLY (financially and legally) liable for any actions/inactions by C&RT.

[Teasel]

yes i think that's a pretty standard Trustee thing in all charitable trusts or charities. You mean we should talk to them about it?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Did you also note that the trustees are PERSONALLY (financially and legally) liable for any actions/inactions by C&RT.

Its worth pointing out that one of the reasons C&RT is a private company limited by guarantee is to reduce the financial liability of the trustees should the company be dissolved.  I have not checked but seem to remember that each trustee and possibly some of the executive can be held liable for up to ten pounds each ...

 

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Its worth pointing out that one of the reasons C&RT is a private company limited by guarantee is to reduce the financial liability of the trustees should the company be dissolved.  I have not checked but seem to remember that each trustee and possibly some of the executive can be held liable for up to ten pounds each ...

 

I think that Nigel pointed out that they have unlimited liability, in certain cases and certainly in the 'breach of trust' - it is somewhere in 'the small print'.

Are you thinking of this clause?

Indemnity
Without prejudice to any indemnity to which a Trustee may otherwise be entitled, every Trustee of the Trust shall be indemnified out of the assets of the Trust in relation to any liability incurred by him or her in that capacity but only to the extent permitted by the Companies Acts; and every other officer of the Trust may be indemnified out of the assets of the Trust in relation to any liability incurred by him or her in that capacity, but only to the extent permitted by the Companies Acts.

Examples:

Directors' personal liabilities for company debts can be proved if it can be shown that they performed any inappropriate actions eg Continuing to pay shareholders dividends whilst the company is insolvent. ... Disposing of the company's assets at undervalue or no value.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Teasel]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think that Nigel pointed out that they have unlimited liability

It's limited to (not more than) £10 if the company is dissolved. it's at paragraph 5.2 on page 9 - https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/1338.pdf

Those are fairly limited circumstances though - they are (as far as I remember) liable for any criminal action taken by the Trust - negligence etc.. In terms of using their liability to hold them to the objects, I think it's fairly weak. If you take the example of a charity formed 'for the eradication of homelessness' - it would be impossible to take that charity to court for not eradicating homelessness. They just have to use their charitable funds and status to try  to.