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How Many Straws To Break The Camel’s Back ?


Alan de Enfield

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15 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I would imagine that you can't always specify a stoppage ending date until the whole problem has been analysed. With an ancient system like ours, which has a fair few undocumented bits and pieces attached, that's always going to be the case - no different from the dates a boatyard gives you for the repair of your boat which usually seem to stretch beyond the limits of possibility.

I've never run into (yet) any demands for £25 a night for mooring, and I seem to recall they were on Council owned sites, not CRT.  But as no-one whinged when Llangollen started charging (which is when it should have been nipped in the bud), it's only a matter of scale anyway.

 

Try renovating or repairing a listed building! You will rarely find any builder who will do so for an entirely fixed price - much of the eventual cost will be in Provisional Cost items which only specify the formula for working out what will be charged once the work is known. They may quote a completion date and, if it is a commercial application, you may well need to make an assumption about when you can start trading. Even if you make a generous allowance between the two, you will almost certainly be a nervous wreck as opening date, for which you have committed customers) charges at you like a raging bull!

That said, it would help to concentrate minds if a target end date were quoted, even if it has to be updated several times.

As I understand it, the charge at Llangollen is only for mooring in the offline 'marina' area, including electricity. It does not apply to the on-line moorings, such as they are. I have yet to find a marina that normally allows people to moor in it for free - making money is what they are about.

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1 hour ago, rowland al said:

Ideally boating organisations should be the outlet for addressing these issues, so what's' going wrong there?

Use it or lose it. Is it not the case that less of us are taking boats out for trips and are quite happy leaving the boat tied up in a marina? Are most boats being used as a man/lady cave now, or just a nice thing to own and show off occasionally.

is there any boating organisation that truly represents all boaters these days? most seem to have big differences in their aims.

as an outsider to the organisations (member of none) it seems...

NBTA : represent those that want to moor anywhere, move as little as possible and pay nothing
IWA : keep the network open but keep your boat in a marina only venturing out for organised cruises (and god help anyone else wanting visitor moorings at the same time)
RBOA : if you don't live on your boat we want nothing to do with you

I'm sure there's others I have not remembered to mention but it seems that the various organisations are heavily separated (almost tribal) and as such none of them carry any real weight when it comes to their opinion.
 

Edited by Jess--
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9 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

is there any boating organisation that truly represents all boaters these days? most seem to have big differences in their aims.

as an outsider to the organisations (member of none) it seems...

NBTA : represent those that want to moor anywhere, move as little as possible and pay nothing
IWA : keep the network open but keep your boat in a marina only venturing out for organised cruises (and god help anyone else wanting visitor moorings at the same time)
RBOA : if you don't live on your boat we want nothing to do with you

I'm sure there's others I have not remembered to mention but it seems that the various organisations are heavily separated (almost tribal) and as such none of them carry any real weight when it comes to their opinion.
 

NABO used to be one of the more active organisations for the wider range of boaters. As far as I can see NBTA are the most effective group with regards to getting C&RT to listen, but NABO are probably the best bet of you want to keep the system open for boating.

Of course there is nothing stopping individuals contacting C&RT, local MP's directly and participating at meetings. I've written to Mr Parry twice and received a reply both times. I've attended meetings and made my views known. I know others who have done a lot more. 

It's like the old saying goes, don't think about what others can do for you, think what you can do for them. 

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Talking about use it or lose it.

Wouldn't C&RT throw more time and resources at a problem if several people came across it and reported it, rather than just one person? Some people can't even be bothered to report problems and just rant about it on the internet.

What would happen if those who do see and report problems, get labelled as an annoyance and give up?

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2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

As I understand it, the charge at Llangollen is only for mooring in the offline 'marina' area, including electricity. It does not apply to the on-line moorings, such as they are. I have yet to find a marina that normally allows people to moor in it for free - making money is what they are about.

The online moorings at Llangollen are chargable  (£6 per 24 hours, max stay 48 hours, payable at the boat trip centre) as well as those in the offline 'marina' area. Both have electricity and water available, which takes some of the sting out of the charge. I have used and paid for both online and offline mooring there.

This has been the case since around 2000 IIRC when  the offline 'marina' area was opened.

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11 minutes ago, cuthound said:

The online moorings at Llangollen are chargable  (£6 per 24 hours, max stay 48 hours, payable at the boat trip centre) as well as those in the offline 'marina' area. Both have electricity and water available, which takes some of the sting out of the charge. I have used and paid for both online and offline mooring there.

This has been the case since around 2000 IIRC when  the offline 'marina' area was opened.

£6 a night is hardly worth making a fuss over is it?

(Not saying you were making a fuss Cuthound by the way!)

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2 hours ago, Jess-- said:

 

IWA : keep the network open but keep your boat in a marina only venturing out for organised cruises (and god help anyone else wanting visitor moorings at the same time)

 

I think this is a little unfair. In my opinion the IWA supports genuine continuous cruising, and they make that clear in their strategy statements. The contention arises with those boaters who take the mickey. Of all the boating organisations I believe the IWA, whilst not perfect by any means, has the greatest influence with CRT and probably the best infrastructure to make a difference.

 

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2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed

Lumpy-water marinas are typically £25-£30 per night so £6 is a bargain

Well, yes, but sea going stuff (to the best of my knowledge) pays no hefty licence and boat safety scheme etc. Its a bit like Holland and Belgium, there is usually no licence as such but moorings are (sometimes) quite dear. We pay a French vignette 'licence' which is cheaper than it would be in the UK and very rarely pay overnight unless we need electric or water. The British canals though have an expensive licence and expensive moorings and if overnight stays within reach of any facilities are also expensive then that is a heavy burden.

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25 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

£6 a night is hardly worth making a fuss over is it?

(Not saying you were making a fuss Cuthound by the way!)

I'm sure last time I was there (overnight, around 2010) we moored online in the section without electricity/water and weren't charged.

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2 hours ago, rowland al said:

NBTA : represent those that want to moor anywhere, move as little as possible and pay nothing

NBTA: represent those that pay their way and support the 14 day rule. They also represent, support and help those who find either paying their way or following the 14 day rule difficult. 

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32 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Agreed

Lumpy-water marinas are typically £25-£30 per night so £6 is a bargain

But we aren't talking about lumpy water moorings are we? £6 a night is about £200 per month which is comparable with inland water marinas which also offer up more services, and you can stay there all year around with security.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Goliath said:

NBTA: represent those that pay their way and support the 14 day rule. They also represent, support and help those who find either paying their way or following the 14 day rule difficult. 

By the way you quoted me by mistake (or was it?). But I agree with you.

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7 minutes ago, rowland al said:

But we aren't talking about lumpy water moorings are we? £6 a night is about £200 per month which is comparable with inland water marinas which also offer up more services, and you can stay there all year around with security.

 

 

I have no issues with paying for the provision of services - many Inland marinas are £10-£20 per night on a 'temporary'  basis so the Llangollen £6 is a bargain whichever way you look at it.

Where I do have concerns about the 'way things are going' is where a piece of 'bog standard' visitors mooring that is/was free of charge (ie covered in the licence fee) suddenly becomes subject to charges with no additional services provided.

C&RT have argued that the provision of 'rings / bollards' is providing a service and is something they can legally charge for.

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33 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm sure last time I was there (overnight, around 2010) we moored online in the section without electricity/water and weren't charged.

You have to be quite a long way out from Llangollen to avoid the charges now.  All the original online section is charged for.   I don't understand why everyone doesn't go into the marina - less chance of being walloped and you've got to go there anyway to turn round to get out again!

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have no issues with paying for the provision of services - many Inland marinas are £10-£20 per night on a 'temporary'  basis so the Llangollen £6 is a bargain whichever way you look at it.

Where I do have concerns about the 'way things are going' is where a piece of 'bog standard' visitors mooring that is/was free of charge (ie covered in the licence fee) suddenly becomes subject to charges with no additional services provided.

C&RT have argued that the provision of 'rings / bollards' is providing a service and is something they can legally charge for.

Well look at the so called 'winter moorings'. The law says 14 days, C&RT say we'll turn a blind eye if you stay longer so long as you pay us.

They already charge us to be able to moor up at a bog standard visitor mooring. It's called a licence fee as you say. 

I cant blame C&RT though. They have an empire to pay for, oops, sorry meant charity, 

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3 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Well look at the so called 'winter moorings'. The law says 14 days, C&RT say we'll turn a blind eye if you stay longer so long as you pay us

In the bad old days it was called 'protection money' and was paid by (such as shopkeepers) to the Mafia to give them protection against persecution -

Yup, pretty similar.

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

In the bad old days it was called 'protection money' and was paid by (such as shopkeepers) to the Mafia to give them protection against persecution -

Yup, pretty similar.

You brought up the comparison with the Mafia, I didn't. Are you sure you didn't start this thread up as a wind up BTW? ;)

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9 minutes ago, rowland al said:

They already charge us to be able to moor up at a bog standard visitor mooring. It's called a licence fee as you say.

Using that line of logic you could argue we pay for roadside parking through the "Road Tax" (Yes I know that isn't its proper name) so why are parking meters allowed.

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1 minute ago, Jerra said:

Using that line of logic you could argue we pay for roadside parking through the "Road Tax" (Yes I know that isn't its proper name) so why are parking meters allowed.

I've never understood the need to compare boating to driving, mooring to parking, car tax to boat license. The two are so far apart. Well, I thought so, which is why I choose boating. 

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9 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I've never understood the need to compare boating to driving, mooring to parking, car tax to boat license. The two are so far apart. Well, I thought so, which is why I choose boating. 

I chose both, but I still don't understand why people sometimes use other analogies which are wrong to justify a situation which is also wrong. 

Actually, I don't have a problem with raising funds in the name of charity, so it's all good really. 

 

Edited by rowland al
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