Boiling battery

[Sunnydays]

Went down to the marina this week to check on our boat to discover a rather nasty smell and one of the co2 alarms bleeping. On inspection it one of the 2 liesure batteries bubbling away and very warm. So I immediately switched off the isolator and disconncted the power to jetty cable. We've had the boat (50 ft nb) for a year and as far as I know the liesure batteries are over 5 years old. My thoughts are to replace both in the spring. I'll also have plenty of time to read and familierise myself with 'battery charging methods' which are covered extensively elsewhere on this forum.

So some initial questions.

As we are unlikely to use the boat until early spring I was thinking of removing the dud battery and leaving the remaining battery in place and connected via the jetty cable to keep the dehumidifier running and for the occasional winter visit (as the marina is only 10 minutes away)

Is there a particular process for disconnecting? What about the vacant cables. Can the connecting ends be wrapped in insulating tape and kept tied back away from everything? 

Anything else I need to be aware off?

Thanks in advance for your comments. 

 

[alan_fincher]

Why do you need a battery to keep the dehumidifier running?

Surely most humidifiers are 230V AC, not 12V DC?

If yours is mains driven, why is it not being fed directly from the shore line, and what part is your domestic 12v battery bank playing in it?

Come to think of it, why do you need a hunidifier in a non occupied boat?  If this is a normal steel narrow boat, sensibly insulated, and with things left open to ventilate it, I would not see the need for one.  (Well we have never neded one, certainly).

EDITED TO ADD:

If you have had one 5 year old battery go bad on you because of a shorted cell, I'm not sure I would want to leave the other one on charge.  They can actually go "bang", not just get very hot and emit gasses, and the resultant mess and damage can be substantial.  This isn't a "scaring someone" type comment, there have been several reported cases of it happening just from forum members alone

Edited November 25, 2017 by alan_fincher

[RLWP]

6 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

They can actually go "bang", not just get very hot and emit gasses, and the resultant mess and damage can be substantial.  This isn't a "scaring someone" type comment, there have been several reported cases of it happening just from forum members alone

They do indeed, and make a terrible mess too. I wonder if I can find a picture?

Richard

Here you go: 

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by RLWP

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Good idea to disconnect the boiling battery. I would remove the superfluous cables entirely till the two batts are replaced. Take out the link cables between them and move the incoming cables to the appropriate terminal s on the remaining batt. I wuldn't be happy with relying on insulating tape as the cheaper sort has a tendency to unwind. An accidental short from a cable waving around could lead to the battery exploding. If you are unsure which cables to connect where then post a picture.

Pedant alert. It is CO alarm, not CO2. Hydrogen will also set off a CO detector.

Jen

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

Why do you need a battery to keep the dehumidifier running?

Surely most humidifiers are 230V AC, not 12V DC?

If yours is mains driven, why is it not being fed directly from the shore line, and what part is your domestic 12v battery bank playing in it?

Come to think of it, why do you need a hunidifier in a non occupied boat?  If this is a normal steel narrow boat, sensibly insulated, and with things left open to ventilate it, I would not see the need for one.  (Well we have never neded one, certainly).

EDITED TO ADD:

If you have had one 5 year old battery go bad on you because of a shorted cell, I'm not sure I would want to leave the other one on charge.  They can actually go "bang", not just get very hot and emit gasses, and the resultant mess and damage can be substantial.  This isn't a "scaring someone" type comment, there have been several reported cases of it happening just from forum members alone

We have a dehumidifier running on our boat at this moment. Well hopefully it is actually sleeping, but it wakes up every 30 mins to sniff the air and decide whether it needs to run. We close all windows and block the roof vents with tape so we are not trying to dehumidify the world! Dehumidifier drains into the sink

Of course the alternative is just to well-ventilate the boat and this is fairly sucessful, but we found out that in the first winter some of the cupboard doors started sticking and we got a hint of mould on the curtains. Even with good ventilation the relative humidity inside the boat is unlikely to be lower than outside, and relative humidity outside can easily be in the high 90s% for prolonged periods. Hence the switch to no ventilation and dehumidifier. It costs about £3 a week to run and the boat is much fresher inside as a result with no hint of mould or expanding wood.

Ventilation is OK, dehumidifying is better.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Sunnydays said:

Went down to the marina this week to check on our boat to discover a rather nasty smell and one of the co2 alarms bleeping. On inspection it one of the 2 liesure batteries bubbling away and very warm. So I immediately switched off the isolator and disconncted the power to jetty cable. We've had the boat (50 ft nb) for a year and as far as I know the liesure batteries are over 5 years old. My thoughts are to replace both in the spring. I'll also have plenty of time to read and familierise myself with 'battery charging methods' which are covered extensively elsewhere on this forum.

So some initial questions.

As we are unlikely to use the boat until early spring I was thinking of removing the dud battery and leaving the remaining battery in place and connected via the jetty cable to keep the dehumidifier running and for the occasional winter visit (as the marina is only 10 minutes away)

Is there a particular process for disconnecting? What about the vacant cables. Can the connecting ends be wrapped in insulating tape and kept tied back away from everything? 

Anything else I need to be aware off?

Thanks in advance for your comments. 

 

Leave the battery off charge for a while with good ventilation as there may be a build up of explosive hydrogen. Disconnecting wires in the presence of hydrogen is asking for a spark and explosion!

As said, if one battery has failed the other one is not likely to be far behind. I wouldn't leave it on charge. Can you turn off the charger whilst leaving the shore power on for the dehumidifier? Or just get new batteries now.

Disconnect the +ve first, being careful not to touch the spanner onto any metal. Best to wrap the spanner in tape or just be very careful. If you do leave the other battery in circuit, best to disconnect the link wires at both ends. But anyway you have the general idea about being careful to protect and secure the loose end.

[MtB]

49 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Ventilation is OK, dehumidifying is better.

 

Heating the boat is better still, I suspect. Along with minimum ventilation.  

Raising the temperature lowers the RH too.

[Sunnydays]

All very helpfull thank you. You are correct Alan ....with the humidifier being 240v and an electricity hook up there is no real need for the battery at all whilst in the marina. With hindsight I'll probably remove both for now, keep the better of the two as a spare and then replace in the spring with 2 2 ones. The boat is pretty well insulated woth little or no condensation and the reason we've got the dehumidifier is to stop Mrs Sunnydays worrying about the new expensive mattress and new Nabru sofa getting damp.....

 

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Heating the boat is better still, I suspect. Along with minimum ventilation.  

Raising the temperature lowers the RH too.

It does, but it takes more energy so I don't think it is "better" other than stopping pipes freezing. If the boat is to be kept above ambient temperature, that requires constant energy. But if the boat's vents and windows are closed, once the RH is lowered to 50% at near zero temperatures, it doesn't require much energy to maintain that state. Also I think there will always be colder areas such as the inside of cupboards, where condensation or at least high RH is likely. Whereas with dehumidifying, temperatures will be more even throughout the boat and by diffusion the water is uniformly removed.

[LEO]

Sorry to read of your battery problem - the smael is unpleasant and soon all the copper on your boat will go 'silver' and then black.......takes ages to clean it.

 

L.

[Bod]

8 hours ago, Sunnydays said:

All very helpfull thank you. You are correct Alan ....with the humidifier being 240v and an electricity hook up there is no real need for the battery at all whilst in the marina. With hindsight I'll probably remove both for now, keep the better of the two as a spare and then replace in the spring with 2 2 ones. The boat is pretty well insulated woth little or no condensation and the reason we've got the dehumidifier is to stop Mrs Sunnydays worrying about the new expensive mattress and new Nabru sofa getting damp.....

 

Take the mattress and sofa home?

 

Bod

[Momac]

I use a dehumidifier too. In the winter an unoccupied boat is , I would suggest, a perfectly valid place to use such device.

If the boat is occupied it's possibly better value for money to  to put some heating on and open a window or two .

Get the dud battery off the boat as  soon as possible and keep a regular check on other batteries .  The batteries in any one bank are best replaced as a set as a weaker battery will place demands on the others in the same bank.

 

 

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Bod said:

Take the mattress and sofa home?

 

Bod

If it's anything like my boat, and my home, with my wife..... that is so very much easier said than done, in a whole variety of ways

[Sunnydays]

All good advice.  Thanks. Will vist the boat tomorrow. Remove dud battery. Leave other one in place for now with redundant cables temporarily removed. Next job....order 2 new batteries. I wont mention charging as theres rafts of information elsewhere but i might just ask....wheres the best place to buy batteries? 

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, Sunnydays said:

wheres the best place to buy batteries? 

Tayna is often mentioned, as is Battery Megastore. 

11 minutes ago, Sunnydays said:

Remove dud battery. Leave other one in place for now

I wouldn’t. What’s the point? You know it’s duff, you’d not want to charge it, so...?

[nikvah]

Hi There, hope you don't mind me hitching a ride on this topic to ask a related question. The output from my domestic battery alternator (12v/110A) reads 14.8v and I have been told I need to replace it or will definitely boil the batteries but 2nd opinion is it's high but OK. What is the opinion of the panel? Cheers.

[Richard10002]

43 minutes ago, Sunnydays said:

All good advice.  Thanks. Will vist the boat tomorrow. Remove dud battery. Leave other one in place for now with redundant cables temporarily removed. Next job....order 2 new batteries. I wont mention charging as theres rafts of information elsewhere but i might just ask....wheres the best place to buy batteries? 

Depends what batteries you want.... Battery Megastore let me down badly with delivery, (non delivery), of 4 x T105s, which led me to wait in for a whole long weekend, when they hadnt even been sent to the courier firm. Got my money back and bought from Tayna who delivered next day. But Tayna are expensive for T105s now, and for Varta Hobby A28s. Advanced battery Supplies in Stockport own brand 110Ah batteries were awful..

What make and model are your current batteries?

5 minutes ago, nikvah said:

Hi There, hope you don't mind me hitching a ride on this topic to ask a related question. The output from my domestic battery alternator (12v/110A) reads 14.8v and I have been told I need to replace it or will definitely boil the batteries but 2nd opinion is it's high but OK. What is the opinion of the panel? Cheers.

Who has told you to replace it, and who has said it's high, but OK.

 

I'm no expert, but I'd say it's higher than the norm, but OK. I set my 240V charger to 14.9V for the absorption part of the charge cycle, but my alternator maxes out at 14.4V.

[WotEver]

12 minutes ago, nikvah said:

Hi There, hope you don't mind me hitching a ride on this topic to ask a related question. The output from my domestic battery alternator (12v/110A) reads 14.8v and I have been told I need to replace it or will definitely boil the batteries but 2nd opinion is it's high but OK. What is the opinion of the panel? Cheers.

What Batteries do you have? 14.8V is ideal in these temperatures for many (but not all) Batteries. 

And how are you measuring the 14.8V? How accurate is the device?

[cuthound]

9 hours ago, nikvah said:

Hi There, hope you don't mind me hitching a ride on this topic to ask a related question. The output from my domestic battery alternator (12v/110A) reads 14.8v and I have been told I need to replace it or will definitely boil the batteries but 2nd opinion is it's high but OK. What is the opinion of the panel? Cheers.

Depends on usage. If you only use the alternator to charge for a few hours a day, such as when cruising it won't do  much harm. 

14.8 volts is a little on the high side for wet lead acids, but tolerable for those with a high calcium content, particularly in cold weather when it is better to raise the charge voltage slightly.

However long exposure to a high charge voltage, particularly in summer will harm the batteries in the long term.

 

 

[nikvah]

10 hours ago, WotEver said:

What Batteries do you have? 14.8V is ideal in these temperatures for many (but not all) Batteries. 

And how are you measuring the 14.8V? How accurate is the device?

I have 4x 110A gel domestic batteries more than 3 years old, 2x 100A solar panels and plug into shore line between regular 2-3 week cruises (rarely more than 6hrs/day). The service engineer reported the output voltage and advice to replace the alternator.

Edited November 26, 2017 by nikvah
bad grammer

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, nikvah said:

I have 4x 110A gel domestic batteries

 

So the next step is to look up the manufacturer's data sheet for the exact model of batteries you have, to see what charging voltage(s) they recommend. 

[Sunnydays]

My existing batteries are Alpha Uktra Plus 12v Type 140L. Does that mean anything to anyone?

[nicknorman]

55 minutes ago, nikvah said:

I have 4x 110A gel domestic batteries more than 3 years old, 2x 100A solar panels and plug into shore line between regular 2-3 week cruises (rarely more than 6hrs/day). The service engineer reported the output voltage and advice to replace the alternator.

Gel batteries are more sensitive to over-voltage. But I'd want to know a bit more, ie under what conditions is the voltage reaching 14.8v. If during mid-charge then I'd say it was definitely too high. If right at the end of the charge, once the batteries are full, then its less of an issue especially at this time of year when batteries are cold. If the latter, does putting on a load such as the tunnel light bring the voltage down a bit?

Gel cells normally like to be charged at 14.4v. But that is typically at 25degC. At say 5degC that equates to ~ 14.8v. Of course if you batteries are near the engine they may get quite warm during a 6 hr cruise, in which case 14.8v is too high.

Edited November 26, 2017 by nicknorman

[Richard10002]

24 minutes ago, Sunnydays said:

My existing batteries are Alpha Uktra Plus 12v Type 140L. Does that mean anything to anyone?

They sound like Alpha Batteries own brand of Lead Acid batteries. Cant see anything relating to type 140L on their web site. What size are they in mm i.e. Length, Width, Height ? 

If they are approx. 345mm long x 175mm wide x 245mm high, they are typical of 110Ah leisure batteries, and you have a fairly wide choice, from el cheapos, as some would call them, to well known reputable brands for more money. I'm currently considering new batteries and am considering Numax, Varta and Exide, as well as Trojan T105s, which are a different shape/size. 

[Sunnydays]

Yep i checked their website but couldn't see anything the same but i think these are 7 or 8 years old so things have moved on i guess. The size is 340x170 x 250 high so i think its a reasonably standard size although Ive been advised to go for gel batteries which may come in smaller dimensions . Anything else i need to know before ordering ??