Jump to content

Hurth HBW 400 & Obsolete Parts


Featured Posts

We are in the process of trying to sort out the problem with Python's gearbox that makes neutral a movable feast, one that can sometimes only be found by peering into the darkness below the step and checking the propshaft has actually stopped turning! She has a Hurth HBW 400

When the engine was refitted a couple of years ago after rebuild we knew the gear change was not right and had planned to fit a new Morse control but, our friendly and helpful boat builder checked it over and checked the adjustment and advised us there was nothing wrong with the Morse, the problem was most likely to be an internal one in the gearbox. We have put it on a back burner as, having spoken with a couple of people who understand gearboxes, they confirmed the symptoms we have could be caused by the gearbox and they also suggested it did not mean it was likely to fail imminently, it could go on for years acting this way. It occurred to us a couple of months ago that not reliably being able to stop the prop turning quickly in an emergency (man overboard) is actually a huge safety problem so we want to get it sorted out. 

We have approached ZF Services (who took over Hurth many moons ago) and they have an engineer on our case for us. He has been to visit the boat and seen the problem. We are in the process of removing the gearbox so they can strip it down and inspect it and give us a proper report on it's condition. (which they are very kindly offering to do FOC for us) 

The engineer confirmed our box was from 1980 which was exactly what I was hoping he would say (it matches the age of the Lister engine).  However, depending what they find when they open it up it does limit our options a little and I would like to get some idea of what alternative options might be available to us if we find our box is not repairable. 

I am advised that all the clutch plates, seals and gaskets for the HBW 400 are still available but a significant number of the "hard parts" such as shafts and gears are made of unobtanium and so we might be faced with a gearbox that can't be rebuilt depending what they find when it is opened up. 

The HBW 400 was replaced by the HBW 450 which was discontinued in the late 1980's with no direct replacement. Current ZF boxes are all hydraulic and would require some water cooling. As Python has an air cooled Lister HA2  I am assuming it would be a major job to create some water cooling and so I don't feel that is a route I really want to go down.  Am I right to think that applies to all hydraulic gearboxes? 

Given the age of the Hurth 400 is it likely that we might find one somewhere that is in serviceable condition? I feel it could be a false economy to buy and fit an unknown second hand box.  Knowing the current Hurth is the box that was fitted when she was converted around 1980 means that it does have some heritage value and I need to keep that in mind when we consider replacement BUT she is not a museum exhibit, she is a functioning working boat with a job to do and we need her to be reliable. 

Of course we are all hoping that the box will be repairable BUT, if it is not which direction should we be thinking along the lines of?  What gearboxes are there out there that will do what we want without us having a major conversion job on our hands and what might we have to consider to convert to a different box? 

 

image.png.ac75fe42f5a799292898daab4f0e2717.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. The Lister LH150 is a hydraulic box that does not need water cooling.

2. I bet Richard could sort such things as shafts etc.  Either by the slide on shaft repair sleeves he posted on a while ago or having a contact metal spray them and re-machining but It is likely to cost, but not as much as a new box plus the engineering required.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. The Lister LH150 is a hydraulic box that does not need water cooling.

2. I bet Richard could sort such things as shafts etc.  Either by the slide on shaft repair sleeves he posted on a while ago or having a contact metal spray them and re-machining but It is likely to cost, but not as much as a new box plus the engineering required.

 

Thank you

Can anyone share a link to the repair sleeves please?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SKF Speedi-Sleeve: http://www.skf.com/uk/products/seals/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve/index.html

Fitting oil cooling for a gearbox isn't that much of a problem. Weld a small box to the inside of the baseplate, much like a tiny skin tank. You don't need to take the boat out of the water

Richard

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Richard.

Have you used those sleeves? They seem a potentially useful bit of kit for old mechanical stuff. 

I will wait and see what the report comes back with (ZF have said they are happy to share photos you will be pleased to know!) 

I had not realised that the baseplate could act like a skin tank ...although now I think about it ... it's fairly obvious! I think I thought a skin tank was an area where the steel was thinner but as soon as I have typed that I pondered on where it would be on our own boat and why I was not aware of it's location. 

It might still be a bit of a problem as Python is on a mooring without power and too far up an embankment to get a cable from the trailer based heavy duty genny one of team has for running his welder so we may have to get the pole out and punt her through three locks :) 

That could be fun

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These sleeves are useful on a worn shaft if seals leak. It is not possible to use them on a worn shaft under a ball or roller bearing but I have seen them used inside a plain bearing as they increase the shaft size. Hopefully your problems will relate to worn or slack rolling bearings and just clutch pack problems. Gearboxes can almost always be repaired if you have the will and the funds!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, adrianh said:

These sleeves are useful on a worn shaft if seals leak. It is not possible to use them on a worn shaft under a ball or roller bearing but I have seen them used inside a plain bearing as they increase the shaft size. Hopefully your problems will relate to worn or slack rolling bearings and just clutch pack problems. Gearboxes can almost always be repaired if you have the will and the funds!

Indeed. I made a shaft for a Lister gearbox last year for a narrow gauge loco

I've got what may be a Lister box for a dumper truck in just now - fortunately this one was just rusted up, so violence and new bearings will sort it

Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, adrianh said:

 Gearboxes can almost always be repaired if you have the will and the funds!

That is the bit that worries me! 

The will is there in bucket loads (the team have spent 3300 volunteer hours in the last financial year to get Python to where she is now) 

Some folks seem to be trying to restore a canal though and they don't take kindly to me dipping in the pot for stuff like this when there is serious stuff like concrete and brick need buying 

Thankfully ZF are also wanting to do their bit to help bless 'em. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is interesting. I thought it was fairly critical that a hydraulic box did not get too warm and sitting in a metal box next to big lump of air cooled engine while working fairly hard is not what I would have thought would be an ideal situation.

Perhaps it is not as critical as I thought

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One extra added problem you would have if a replacement GB was required & is different model & or make is the rear engine mounts are GB mounted so if this route is taken the remounting of power unit etc. will be required along with other work to overcome the differences would be an easier/possibly cheaper job if the original or same type/model GB can/could be used/fitted

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, X Alan W said:

One extra added problem you would have if a replacement GB was required & is different model & or make is the rear engine mounts are GB mounted so if this route is taken the remounting of power unit etc. will be required along with other work to overcome the differences would be an easier/possibly cheaper job if the original or same type/model GB can/could be used/fitted

Yes I agree.

In addition to that the man from ZF said their current units are all right handed whereas the tiny letter L on our identification plate indicates our box is a left handed one.

I have no idea if that is something that generally applies to hydraulic boxes or if it is specific to ZF ones.

I really want to keep the original if at all possible. I would be looking at getting new parts made if they are found to be required before I even look at replacing.

P.S.

The nice man from ZF has also sent me a a series of PDF's which are the workshop manual for the gearbox. It is engineering porn at it's finest with all those exploded diagrams.

I wonder if I can raise some money towards the repairs by offering a pay per view scheme :giggles:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, cheshire~rose said:

That is interesting. I thought it was fairly critical that a hydraulic box did not get too warm and sitting in a metal box next to big lump of air cooled engine while working fairly hard is not what I would have thought would be an ideal situation.

Perhaps it is not as critical as I thought

Gearbox oil cooler placed in the cold air intake for the engine?

Would need an air cooled oil cooler from a car or truck, do'able?

 

Bod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cheshire~rose said:

The nice man from ZF has also sent me a a series of PDF's which are the workshop manual for the gearbox. It is engineering porn at it's finest with all those exploded diagrams.

I wonder if I can raise some money towards the repairs by offering a pay per view scheme

But if the authorities were to find such material on one’s pc there could be repercussions ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

Belfast's ST3 has a PRM hydraulic box with no cooling. Has worked fine for years.

Tawny's BMC 1.8 also had no oil cooler on the gearbox. Alvechurch must have run it like that for most of it's life

Richard

5 hours ago, X Alan W said:

One extra added problem you would have if a replacement GB was required & is different model & or make is the rear engine mounts are GB mounted so if this route is taken the remounting of power unit etc. will be required along with other work to overcome the differences would be an easier/possibly cheaper job if the original or same type/model GB can/could be used/fitted

There are also legs on the fan housing if you check the photos carefully, so the engine is properly supported

Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Tawny's BMC 1.8 also had no oil cooler on the gearbox. Alvechurch must have run it like that for most of it's life

Richard

There are also legs on the fan housing if you check the photos carefully, so the engine is properly supported

Richard

Yes I see that now but if a different GB is required & the out put flange coupling is at a different height the power unit will require attention in the realigning dept

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, X Alan W said:

Yes I see that now but if a different GB is required & the out put flange coupling is at a different height the power unit will require attention in the realigning dept

Agreed. Unless it has a lorry type prop shaft

That would be a bonus, boats don't often work that way

Richard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.