Shore line not working

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Listen to nicknorman, he is a genius!

Have you been on the sauce again?!

[WotEver]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Have you been on the sauce again?!

I told him to post that

[rusty69]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Have you been on the sauce again?!

HP to contribute, that's all

[WotEver]

I think this thread is a salutary lesson in carefully reading the OP and understanding what’s been said as opposed to jumping in with wild suggestions which have little or no likelihood of being relevant. 

Nick hit the nail on the head in post #6 although PaulC was nearly there in his first reply (post #2). Many posts followed which demonstrated that the poster either hadn’t read the OP, hadn’t looked at the photo in the OP, or simply hadn’t understood the OP. 

Tony

[nicknorman]

22 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think this thread is a salutary lesson in carefully reading the OP and understanding what’s been said as opposed to jumping in with wild suggestions which have little or no likelihood of being relevant. 

Nick hit the nail on the head in post #6 although PaulC was nearly there in his first reply (post #2). Many posts followed which demonstrated that the poster either hadn’t read the OP, hadn’t looked at the photo in the OP, or simply hadn’t understood the OP. 

Tony

But also the OP gave clear account of the problem and circumstances, provided photos at an early stage, had obviously read the replies properly and responded to questions and suggestions. It’s amazing how often that doesn’t happen!  With all that, diagnosis is so much easier!

Edited November 22, 2017 by nicknorman

[alan_fincher]

Just be aware that if you do remove the 13A plug from the inverter whilst the inverter is not in use, but you have a land-line connected to shore power, there could be 230v mains on the exposed pins of the plug.

I very much doubt there will be, because, as has been suggested, the multi-position switch should be ensuring this is never the case.

However that assumes that what you do have is all intelligently wired and sensible, and that no well meaning person who didn't understand things correctly has ever been into the wiring and modified anything, (always a bit of an assumption!)

Personally until you are confident what you have, I'd leave the 13A plug still plugged into the inverter.  Better you stuff 230V mains the wrong way up the inverter than through yourself, IMO.

Edited November 22, 2017 by alan_fincher

[WotEver]

19 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But also the OP gave clear account of the problem and circumstances, provided photos at an early stage, had obviously read the replies properly and responded to questions and suggestions. It’s amazing how often that doesn’t happen!  With all that, diagnosis is so much easier!

Agreed

[mross]

45 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think this thread is a salutary lesson in carefully reading the OP and understanding what’s been said as opposed to jumping in with wild suggestions which have little or no likelihood of being relevant. 

Nick hit the nail on the head in post #6 although PaulC was nearly there in his first reply (post #2). Many posts followed which demonstrated that the poster either hadn’t read the OP, hadn’t looked at the photo in the OP, or simply hadn’t understood the OP. 

Tony

 

At least he got some rapid responses which may have helped him think of different solutions.  After all, the OP didn't understand the situation initially.  I mistakenly took him at face value when he said he couldn't get shore power to work.  With hindsight and re-reading the OP, it's obvious that shore power was working and that he assumed it wasn't because the red light on the bollard wasn't flashing.

I posted a suggestion this morning because it appeared that he was still without shore power.  Then some posts came in that seem out of sequence,  They were not there when I first opened my custom view.

[nicknorman]

13 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Just be aware that if you do remove the 13A plug from the inverter whilst the inverter is not in use, but you have a land-line connected to shore power, there could be 230v mains on the exposed pins of the plug.

I very much doubt there will be, because, as has been suggested, the multi-position switch should be ensuring this is never the case.

However that assumes that what you do have is all intelligently wired and sensible, and that no well meaning person who didn't understand things correctly has ever been into the wiring and modified anything, (always a bit of an assumption!)

Personally until you are confident what you have, I'd leave the 13A plug still plugged into the inverter.  Better you stuff 230V mains the wrong way up the inverter than through yourself, IMO.

Sorry Alan but this is effectively scaremongering and as such, most unhelpful (not intentionally, of course). Your point is clearly incorrect since if the plug were somehow live from shore power, it would have instantly trashed the inverter the first moment it was used. Therefore your suggestion is not a possibility, it is an impossibility.

1 minute ago, mross said:

At least he got some rapid responses which may have helped him think of different solutions.  After all, the OP didn't understand the situation initially.  I mistakenly took him at face value when he said he couldn't get shore power to work.  With hindsight and re-reading the OP, it's obvious that shore power was working and that he assumed it wasn't because the red light on the bollard wasn't flashing.

I posted a suggestion this morning because it appeared that he was still without shore power.  Then some posts came in that seem out of sequence,  They were not there when I first opened my custom view.

Some of us read the OP’s posts properly and noticed it was a she!

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, mross said:

At least he got some rapid responses which may have helped him think of different solutions.  After all, the OP didn't understand the situation initially.  I mistakenly took him at face value when he said he couldn't get shore power to work.  With hindsight and re-reading the OP, it's obvious that shore power was working and that he assumed it wasn't because the red light on the bollard wasn't flashing.

I posted a suggestion this morning because it appeared that he was still without shore power.  Then some posts came in that seem out of sequence,  They were not there when I first opened my custom view.

He's a she

[alan_fincher]

7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Sorry Alan but this is effectively scaremongering and as such, most unhelpful (not intentionally, of course). Your point is clearly incorrect since if the plug were somehow live from shore power, it would have instantly trashed the inverter the first moment it was used. Therefore your suggestion is not a possibility, it is an impossibility.

This assumes every known permutation of anything we can see or have been told about, (or can't see or haven't been told about) has been tried.  I wasn't sure that is the case.

I have in the past heard of people simply attempting to connect the output of 2 inverters in parallel without destroying either, which can't be a million miles from showing 230V mains up the output of one.  Can you say unequivocally every inverter ever manufactured will be trashed by such an action?

Why is it "most unhelpful" to suggest that the plug is left in the inverter?  How will advice about removing it and letting it dangle aid the solution to this problem?  If OP makes sure the inverter is powered off, (as several has said they should), then you can be confident that any 230V you "find" anywhere must be coming from the land-line.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

This assumes every known permutation of anything we can see or have been told about, (or can't see or haven't been told about) has been tried.  I wasn't sure that is the case.

I have in the past heard of people simply attempting to connect the output of 2 inverters in parallel without destroying either, which can't be a million miles from showing 230V mains up the output of one.  Can you say unequivocally every inverter ever manufactured will be trashed by such an action?

Why is it "most unhelpful" to suggest that the plug is left in the inverter?  How will advice about removing it and letting it dangle aid the solution to this problem?  If OP makes sure the inverter is powered off, (as several has said they should), then you can be confident that any 230V you "find" anywhere must be coming from the land-line.

Assuming the inverter power switch works.

[alan_fincher]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Assuming the inverter power switch works.

If it results in all the lights going out, I would say it will have done.

(For the avoidance of doubts - the lights on the inverter, not those anywhere else on the boat...................)

Edited November 22, 2017 by alan_fincher

[mross]

I suppose, if the 3-way switch internals fell apart, it could backfeed and make the 13A plug pins live?  Admittedly unlikely.

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

This assumes every known permutation of anything we can see or have been told about, (or can't see or haven't been told about) has been tried.  I wasn't sure that is the case.

I have in the past heard of people simply attempting to connect the output of 2 inverters in parallel without destroying either, which can't be a million miles from showing 230V mains up the output of one.  Can you say unequivocally every inverter ever manufactured will be trashed by such an action?

Why is it "most unhelpful" to suggest that the plug is left in the inverter?  How will advice about removing it and letting it dangle aid the solution to this problem?  If OP makes sure the inverter is powered off, (as several has said they should), then you can be confident that any 230V you "find" anywhere must be coming from the land-line.

The only “permutation” is the 4 positions of the rotary switch, all of which were tried with both shore and inverter on. Possibly if you connect 2 inverters in parallel that are low power jobs, they might not blow each other up, but it seems unlikely. More probably urban myth. Some inverter can synchronise with another inverter of the same make to allow parallel operation with the appropriate data cable. But in general the  instantaneous near-unlimited power of shore power, not phase or frequency matched with the inverter, will at the very best trip some protective device in the inverter but more likely, release all the magic smoke.

obviously there is nothing wrong with leaving the plug in, nor leaving it dangling for that matter. But to couch any such advice in “Oooh, the pins might be live and you will be blown to smithereens if you touch them!” causes unnecessary alarm and is likely to make the OP fearful to do anything let they be zapped. It is unkind to make someone afraid of their boat.

3 minutes ago, mross said:

I suppose, if the 3-way switch internals fell apart, it could backfeed and make the 13A plug pins live?  Admittedly unlikely.

But equally, the OP might be beamed up into space by aliens for experimentation with electrodes. I would therefore strongly recommend that she gets some of that extra thick baking foil and make a tin hat ASAP, so they can’t pick up her brain waves. Oh and also hide under the duvet if she hears any strange spaceship-type noises.

Edited November 22, 2017 by nicknorman

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The only “permutation” is the 4 positions of the rotary switch, all of which were tried with both shore and inverter on. Possibly if you connect 2 inverters in parallel that are low power jobs, they might not blow each other up, but it seems unlikely. Some inverter can synchronise with another inverter of the same make to allow parallel operation with the appropriate data cable. But in general the  instantaneous near-unlimited power of shore power, not phase or frequency matched with the inverter, will at the very best trip some protective device in the inverter but more likely, release all the magic smoke.

obviously there is nothing wrong with leaving the plug in, nor leaving it dangling for that matter. But to couch any such advice in “Oooh, the pins might be live and you will be blown to smithereens if you touch them!” causes unnecessary alarm and is likely to make the OP fearful to do anything let they be zapped. It is unkind to make someone afraid of their boat.

Nick you appear to be the hero ( with help ) of the moment and the OP will now look to your posts for safety advice so can you please inform her not only of the dangers of lectricity as you have rightly done but enquire if she has an " Eco " fan and inform her of the possible dangers from serious physical burns or the boat catching fire.

Cheers

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Nick you appear to be the hero ( with help ) of the moment and the OP will now look to your posts for safety advice so can you please inform her not only of the dangers of lectricity as you have rightly done but enquire if she has an " Eco " fan and inform her of the possible dangers from serious physical burns or the boat catching fire.

Cheers

Not the mention the risk to fingers. All those sharp spinny-round blades! Ouch! 

[alan_fincher]

6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But to couch any such advice in “Oooh, the pins might be live and you will be blown to smithereens if you touch them!” causes unnecessary alarm and is likely to make the OP fearful to do anything let they be zapped. It is unkind to make someone afraid of their boat.

You seem incapable of reproducing what anybody actually said, always prefering your own dramatic over-blown interpretation of their words.

Also I would have thought that.....

Quote

I very much doubt there will be, because, as has been suggested, the multi-position switch should be ensuring this is never the case.

acknowledged we were only talking about the very slightest of possibilities, but hey ho!

[mross]

Are you calling him a drama queen?

[rusty69]

24 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Nick you appear to be the hero ( with help ) of the moment and the OP will now look to your posts for safety advice so can you please inform her not only of the dangers of lectricity as you have rightly done but enquire if she has an " Eco " fan and inform her of the possible dangers from serious physical burns or the boat catching fire.

Cheers

nick norman is my hero.

 

Hope he forgives me

[nicknorman]

23 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

You seem incapable of reproducing what anybody actually said, always prefering your own dramatic over-blown interpretation of their words.

Also I would have thought that.....

acknowledged we were only talking about the very slightest of possibilities, but hey ho!

I am of course adding some dramatic interpretation but in this case it is to reflect how your warnings might be interpreted inside the OP's head. One has to remember that all humans, not just me, take the calmly written word and add their own interpretations, visualisations and emphases.

[WotEver]

42 minutes ago, mross said:

I suppose, if the 3-way switch internals fell apart, it could backfeed and make the 13A plug pins live?  Admittedly unlikely.

If you’ve ever looked at the construction of those switches I’d say impossible. 

Obviously any wire anywhere can come adrift and touch something it shouldn’t but there is absolutely no reason to believe that it’s about to happen to OP’s boat any more than it is to yours. 

[alan_fincher]

11 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If you’ve ever looked at the construction of those switches I’d say impossible. 

Obviously any wire anywhere can come adrift and touch something it shouldn’t but there is absolutely no reason to believe that it’s about to happen to OP’s boat any more than it is to yours. 

(Not intend to take sides, or to add to or detract from suggestions to te OP - more a point of my own experiences....)

Having recently bought and installed what may be a very similar switch, I was actually very disappointed with how the connections worked, and how close things that should never touch each other were physically located.  It also had screw connections not easy to use cables with either a ferule, or a ring connector on. (I was using "Arctic" cables).

Admittedly the box that mine came installed in didn't help the situation, and we don't, I think actually know what goes on behind that panel mounted install in the pictures in this thread.

Perhaps I chose a bad one, but on the various e-Bay sites many seemed to be broadly similar.  I don' think many are the best designed things in the world.

On my last boat I went for the KISS approach of a trailing plug moved between inverter and a socket connected to the land-line.  People have criticised such an arrangement, but it is 100% foolproof.  The only think that discouraged me from doing it again was that the inverter output is one of those horrible sockets that allows either UK oblong pinned plugs, or continental round pinned ones to go into the same thing, and it didn't look particularly robust for repeated plugging and unplugging.

One thing the thread has brought home to me is that I need to label the switch positions as "Land-line" "Off" and "Inverter".  I know what 1, 2 & 3 meam, but anybody else attempting to use the switch may not!

[WotEver]

54 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

On my last boat I went for the KISS approach of a trailing plug moved between inverter and a socket connected to the land-line.  People have criticised such an arrangement, but it is 100% foolproof. 

I don’t know why anyone would criticise that as it’s an eminently sensible arrangement. It’s also cheaper and more reliable than contactors. 

 

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

One thing the thread has brought home to me is that I need to label the switch positions as "Land-line" "Off" and "Inverter".  I know what 1, 2 & 3 meam, but anybody else attempting to use the switch may not!

Much the same as the 1-2-Both battery switches. Which one’s 1?

[cuthound]

20 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Much the same as the 1-2-Both battery switches. Which one’s 1?

I would connect the domestic battery to it because it is much more likely to become more deeply discharged thsn the engine starter battery.