continuosly cruising....how far are you suppose to go..

[MtB]

"whats the rules on continuosly cruising?"

 

You have to move far enough (and often enough) for it to look to the apocryphal reasonable man on the Clapham omnibus as though the boat is being used "bona fide for navigation". Nowhere is this term defined so it is largely up to you what it means.

However, in the first instance that outside observer will actually be CRT, and if they disagree with you they will issue you with ever shorter licenses until you change your ways. 

Or if you wish to press the point, then a Judge in a court of law will decide for the both of you whether your cruising pattern counts as using your boat "bona fide for navigation".

Nowhere does this involve CRT fining you.

 

Edit to sort out my quoting!

Edited November 21, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Jen-in-Wellies]

13 minutes ago, Athy said:

I think they do, Jen, I can certainly remember similar questions being asked in these pages. It has usually been in relation to a "ghost mooring", so the angle of the question tends to be, "If I have a home mooring, do I ever need to visit it?" As you would expect, the answer has been an emphatic "yes" - or an emphatic "no"!

Yes you are right! They do make a change from the regular "How little can I get away with CC'ing?" question that comes up all the time. To be fair to the OP, this isn't what she is asking. Just clarification on the very vague and unclear rules. Not her fault that there are no hard and fast answers.

Jen

[X Alan W]

Reading the Op I would guess she would be best suited near to Ilkeston ( Son attending school )in which case if available a mooring at Langley Mill would be a non to difficult journey to Ilkeston Stage damager of this forum would/could advise as the yard is now run by him he could possibly advise other moorings in the Erewash area. I would advise obtaining a mooring at least until you've sorted out the pro's & con's at least you won't have the license checkers to worry about while you suss out what/where suits

[Naughty Cal]

Kings Marina in Newark often have residential moorings available. Might be worth giving them a call.

The Trent isn't really ideal for CCing as most of the visitor moorings are only 24 or 48 hours max stay. Same on the Soar from what I can remember of it.

Don't forget that rivers can easily go into flood so you would need to find safe moorings on the Trent and Soar in those conditions.

If you are dedicated enough then it will be possible to CC in that area and stay within a 1 hour or so commute of Nottingham. But it won't be the easy option by any stretch of the imagination.

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

So their threats of a £25 per day fine for people who overstay are just talk, then? 

 

2 hours ago, Dave_P said:

Bluntly yes.  But the £25 overstaying charge/fine has nothing to do with continuous cruising.  It is intended to apply to all boaters.

 

2 hours ago, Athy said:

Yes, and therefor it applies to continuous cruisers.

 

As CRT are adamant that the £25 per day charges are a "facilities charge" and not a fine, by their own definition, if they do manage to extract one from you, they have not fined you!

As discussed in many recent threads, many believe, (myself included), that these charges are not legally enforcible.  So you could say that it is "just talk" because it is optional whether you choose to pay the charge if invoiced for it.  There is no evidence to date of CRT taking further action against those who are invoiced, but simply don't pay.

Dave is correct that it has nothing to do with the initial question, and Matty is correct that CRT can't fine you for overstaying, but can take the actions he describes instead, should they choose to.

I Know the question OP has asked has been asked hundreds of times before, but if we are to attempt to answer it yet again, it is surely better if those answers are factually accurate?

Edited November 21, 2017 by alan_fincher

[Alan de Enfield]

44 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Kings Marina in Newark often have residential moorings available. Might be worth giving them a call.

The Trent isn't really ideal for CCing as most of the visitor moorings are only 24 or 48 hours max stay. Same on the Soar from what I can remember of it.

Don't forget that rivers can easily go into flood so you would need to find safe moorings on the Trent and Soar in those conditions.

If you are dedicated enough then it will be possible to CC in that area and stay within a 1 hour or so commute of Nottingham. But it won't be the easy option by any stretch of the imagination.

Ilkeston is as near to Derby as it is to Nottingham - it would be at least 1.5 hours by either public transport or private car from Kings at 08:00hours

The Train from Kings is approx. 30 mins to Nottm central station, then walk up to Broad Marsh, then ,you would need bus(ses) to Ilkeston

I cannot imagine it is practical to do 60 miles each way, in the morning and again in the afternoon every day to take/collect little Florence to/from School.

 

This is why C&RT suggest that it is not practical to CC with school commitments. Come home from school at 4 O'clock, it is dark, move boat 5 (?) miles) tie up, get up in the dark and trudge along muddy towpaths until you (hopefully) get to a bus stop - repeat,  and repeat, every few days. 

Sawley Marina (others are available) is the only real option for someone with a 7 year old who has to be in school at 08:30 every morning (and that'll be a difficult enough journey)

Edited November 21, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Athy]

10 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

 

I Know the question OP has asked has been asked hundreds of times before, but if we are to attempt to answer it yet again, it is surely better if those answers are factually accurate?

Of course it is, and that's what we're striving for, hindered by the lack of precision of CART's rules, or guidance, or whatever it may be called.

I note that they have, as far as is known, not yet extracted this £25 from anyone - but if they did and it came out of your or my pocket, I don't think we would be bothered by the exact name which they gave it, our pockets would still be £25 lighter.

[WotEver]

18 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

 

As CRT are adamant that the £25 per day charges are a "facilities charge" and not a fine, by their own definition, if they do manage to extract one from you, they have not fined you!

As discussed in many recent threads, many believe, (myself included), that these charges are not legally enforcible.  So you could say that it is "just talk" because it is optional whether you choose to pay the charge if invoiced for it.  There is no evidence to date of CRT taking further action against those who are invoiced, but simply don't pay.

What about those new signs that are popping up, quoting £200/night?  Anyone been ‘hit’ by those yet?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

What about those new signs that are popping up, quoting £200/night?  Anyone been ‘hit’ by those yet?

One 'blew down' t'other day but it missed us by quite a wide margin.

[Dave_P]

Can we please stop talking about a £25 charge for overstaying?  That's only likely to confuse the OP more.  The question is about the continuous cruising guidelines.  CRT's punishment for not complying with those guidelines is to issue a short term licence leading to fully revoking it.  A £25 charge does not come into that enforcement process.  To put it another way, a continuous cruiser could pick up a number of £25 "fines" during a year whilst still complying with the guidelines.

[Athy]

17 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Can we please stop talking about a £25 charge for overstaying?  That's only likely to confuse the OP more.  The question is about the continuous cruising guidelines.  CRT's punishment for not complying with those guidelines is to issue a short term licence leading to fully revoking it.  A £25 charge does not come into that enforcement process.  To put it another way, a continuous cruiser could pick up a number of £25 "fines" during a year whilst still complying with the guidelines.

Issuing fines (or charges) for complying  sounds rather harsh. Woe betide those who don't.

[Dave_P]

7 minutes ago, Athy said:

Issuing fines (or charges) for complying  sounds rather harsh. Woe betide those who don't.

You misunderstand.  I didn't say that.  There are two different things which can be complied with, you are still confusing the two.  The first thing is the requirement not to overstay on visitor moorings.  The second is to comply with the continuous cruising guidelines if you have declared yourself to be a continuous cruiser.  These are two separate and distinct things.  One of them has no relevance to this discussion but has made for interesting debate in other threads.

I feel i can't put it any more clearly than that.

For those who appear to have not read the guidelines:

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/633.pdf

 

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

You misunderstand.  I didn't say that.  There are two different things which can be complied with, you are still confusing the two.  The first thing is the requirement not to overstay on visitor moorings.  The second is to comply with the continuous cruising guidelines if you have declared yourself to be a continuous cruiser.  These are two separate and distinct things.  One of them has no relevance to this discussion but has made for interesting debate in other threads.

I feel i can't put it any more clearly than that.

No, you're probably right. But a continuous cruiser overstaying on a 14-day mooring would be liable for this fine or charge which CART don't levy anyway. It's crystal clear.

[alan_fincher]

42 minutes ago, Athy said:

Of course it is, and that's what we're striving for, hindered by the lack of precision of CART's rules, or guidance, or whatever it may be called.

I note that they have, as far as is known, not yet extracted this £25 from anyone - but if they did and it came out of your or my pocket, I don't think we would be bothered by the exact name which they gave it, our pockets would still be £25 lighter.

Incorrect again, I'm afraid.

They have successfully charged the £25 per day to people, but only those who have chosen to pay it.

If you pay, they will accept it and bank it, but so far the story is that if you do not,they will not take any other measures against you, except possibly reminders.

[Dave_P]

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

No, you're probably right. But a continuous cruiser overstaying on a 14-day mooring would be liable for this fine or charge which CART don't levy anyway. It's crystal clear.

No they wouldn't. 

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Incorrect again, I'm afraid.

They have successfully charged the £25 per day to people, but only those who have chosen to pay it.

 

"We're going to charge you £25 but we don't mind if you don't pay it". You couldn't make it up.

What do you mean, "again", you cheeky fellow?

3 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

No they wouldn't. 

So, these charges do not apply to CCers? I wonder why not.

Do stop hitting your head against that wall, you may damage yourself (or it).

[alan_fincher]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

 But a continuous cruiser overstaying on a 14-day mooring would be liable for this fine or charge which CART don't levy anyway.

Also I don't think true.

AFAIK the £25 only applies to certain visitor moorings where stay times are declared as less than 14 days.

As hasbeen said elsewhere, if you are a CC-er and have already stayed 14 days then CRT should not allow you to stay longer by spending £25 per day, beccause that would be directly against the 1995 act.

I strongly urge OP to make sure they understand who has their facts right n this thread, and who does not!

1 minute ago, Athy said:

What do you mean, "again", you cheeky fellow?

Because all your recent posts in this thread are actually wrong in some way or another, so are not helping OP to understand the true situation.

Maybe that's a bit blunt, but it's true.

[Athy]

Just now, alan_fincher said:

AFAIK the £25 only applies to certain visitor moorings where stay times are declared as less than 14 days.

 

AH, that's a fact which has not been previously mentioned! Thank you for that clarification, it DOES make sense now.

3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Because all your recent posts in this thread are actually wrong in some way or another, so are not helping OP to understand the true situation.

Maybe that's a bit blunt, but it's true.

I don't mind "blunt" as long as it makes sense, which your last post does - I have learned from it, thank you Alan.

[Athy]

So, Katty, between us we've forged through the jungle of CART regulations and come up with this:

- Unless there is a sign saying otherwise, you can moor for up to 14 days in one place.

- If there is a sign restricting mooring to a shorter time period (48 hours is the most common, often at popular tourist spots), then do not moor for longer than the sign tells you.

- Do not ever* moor in the same place continuously for more than 14 days, or CART may take action against you, which may ultimately result in your being refused a new licence, and you need to have your boat licensed to moor or travel on their waterways.

- At the end of 14 days you must move your boat to a new "place" - which, as you'll have gathered, is open to interpretation.

* Here again there are exceptions, for example if (Heaven forbid) you break your leg and can't reasonably move the boat. I think I'm right in saying that in such circumstances you should let CART know as soon as is practically possible.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Athy

[Bewildered]

Hi Katty, 

The question you should perhaps be asking yourself is, will I be happy to or even able to CC?

From your previous post you state you may be inheriting a wide beam and that your son will live with you and need to get him to school. You have not made mention of a partner, this leads one to conclude you will be boating singlehanded, unless of course your son is a teenager or you have a partner you haven't mentioned. Singlehanded boating can be and is done by many people but I doubt if there are many doing it on a wide beam (stands back hoping to avoid the barrage of contradictions) 

Steering the boat isn't a problem, any one can learn to do it. Handling a boat when mooring is more difficult singlehanded, it only takes a bit of wind or a bit of current to make it tricky. This is not to say it can't be done, but some things are hard enough on your own with a narrow boat let alone a wide beam. I've had many situations when trying to moor the wind has picked up and tried to, and even succeeded in dragging my narrow boat across the cut; I'm nearly 16stone and have struggled to get the boat back to the bank. On occasion I have needed my partner to add her weight the rope. 

From what has been posted above about the logistical difficulties you will face CCing and then take into account the problems you will face singlehandling a wallowing big boat, especially in the winter when you need to move (even if you don't really want to) in order to comply with the rules, perhaps you would in fact be a lot better off swallowing the additional costs and finding a mooring

[LadyG]

https://bwml.co.uk/sawley-marina/ advertise residential moorings.

If you have a school child/children/job and need a car etc it is going to be very difficult to cc, as advised by CRT. 

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Dave_P said:

I'm afraid I can't agree with that.  The actual answer even for A>B>A>B is also "It depends".

From the judge's comments in the CRT v Mayers case:

"To take an extreme example, in its heyday, the Mersey Ferry operated continuously to and fro over the same stretch of water which is less than a mile wide.  No one would ever have accepted the suggestion that the ferry boats were not bona fide used for navigation throughout the period of their operations."

The legal test is whether the use of the boat is bona-fide for navigation.  The cruising pattern has some relevance to this, but is not the only consideration.

I always thought that was a strange example that the judge made,  given that CRT are not the navigation authority for the River Mersey. The navigation authority is the Mersey Docks Harbour Company.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Docks_and_Harbour_Company

[carlt]

48 minutes ago, LadyG said:

If you have a school child/children/job and need a car etc it is going to be very difficult to cc, as advised by CRT. 

Which is proof positive that CRT advice is not worth the paper it's written on.

 

1 minute ago, cuthound said:

I always thought that was a strange example that the judge made,  given that CRT are not the navigation authority for the River Mersey. The navigation authority is the Mersey Docks Harbour Company.

Why should "navigation" be interpreted any differently by CRT as any other authority?

 

[cuthound]

14 minutes ago, carlt said:

Why should "navigation" be interpreted any differently by CRT as any other authority?

 

Because they "own" the track?

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, katty45 said:

I heard something about going to A to b to c...??

Fine if all your potential stopping places are all available, are accessible for transport, and if you can cope with getting to work in time, getting kids to and from their respective schools, leisure activities, and still manage to do shopping, have a registered doctor and dentist,, etc etc. Personally I think it would be very difficult, and remember it is dark from 4.00pm to 9.00 am for much of the winter, and it rains. managing electricity, stocking up with fuel, water, toilet emptying, ,  etc etc. I just think it sounds like a nightmare scenario. A marina at least gives some stability, better facilites and better security.

A fit young man with no dependants, no pets, and with full mobility might well manage it, but just have a look on youtube for some disfunctional families on the K&A protesting their rights, 

Edited November 21, 2017 by LadyG