Does anyone have a copy contract?

[PeterCr]

I'm wondering if brokers use a standard sale contract, and if so does anyone have one they could let me have a copy of? I'd like to read it in the comfort of home rather than sitting at a brokers desk with the broker looking over my shoulder.

In particular I'm wondering about what it says about the rights of the buyer if they get a survey and there are defects found.

Thanks all.

[Neil Smith]

I don't think theres a standard contract, most probably make there own up to cover themselves from past experiences. if defects are found it is down to the seller and buyer to decide beforehand weather to knock off cost of rectifying or not.

Neil

[frahkn]

58 minutes ago, PeterCr said:

I'm wondering if brokers use a standard sale contract, and if so does anyone have one they could let me have a copy of? I'd like to read it in the comfort of home rather than sitting at a brokers desk with the broker looking over my shoulder.

In particular I'm wondering about what it says about the rights of the buyer if they get a survey and there are defects found.

Thanks all.

Many brokers use a version of the standard British Marine Federation (BMF) contract.

The only copy which I have is my own from when I purchased my boat. While I'm happy to let you have a redacted copy, it will take me a while (I am currently on the boat) I'm sure that someone else can let you have one more quickly.

[James Millsop]

Morning Peter. I can send you a copy of the BMF ones we use at Rugby Boat sales if that would help. If you ring the office 01327 342211 after about 8.30 we can take your email and send one over. 

[LadyG]

 

I would assume that as you employ the surveyor any redress would be from him and not with the broker. The broker usually advises you get a survey, and there seems to be little redress in law from the broker, particularly if he does not own the boat, which is usually the case. 

You need to ensure that re-negotiation of the final price will take in to account the survey recommendations if those costs have not been built in to the valuation by the broker; general condition is usually reflected in the original, pre survey price.

I think ABNB offer a no quibble return of your deposit, but with any broker you should ensure your money is ring fenced and not put in to the general account. The survey is not a guarantee that there will be no unidentified defects, and you really don't want to anticipate getting any award from the courts or the surveyor's insurance.

I have been researching the purchase of my future liveaboard and am still ambivalent about a survey. I might make a reduction in my offer to cover my risk, but the boat would have to be fairly modern, in tip top condition and have a record of good maintenance.

The other problem is related to the current market. I am looking for a really nice boat, and some of them sell within hours, with no survey, and no viewings, so I would lose the opportunity. There are only one or two boats per month that appear on the market that fall in to this category.  I am not the only person who is scrutinising boats for sale.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by LadyG

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Neil Smith said:

if defects are found it is down to the seller and buyer to decide beforehand weather to knock off cost of rectifying or not.

I've emboldened the above two words because they're very important. Ensure that you, the broker, and the seller are very clear in advance of the survey as to how to proceed should anything be found (which it will). 

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I've emboldened the above two words because they're very important. Ensure that you, the broker, and the seller are very clear in advance of the survey as to how to proceed should anything be found (which it will). 

A 'typical' contract will say something to the effect:

If necessary repairs are found that total in excess of 10/15/20% of the purchase price of  the boat, then the purchaser can either have a refund of his deposit, or re-negotiate the price.

[PeterCr]

20 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A 'typical' contract will say something to the effect:

If necessary repairs are found that total in excess of 10/15/20% of the purchase price of  the boat, then the purchaser can either have a refund of his deposit, or re-negotiate the price.

That could be a bit of a worry then. If the survey finds, say, 4k problems on a 50k boat then it's not within even 10% but it's still a significant amount to take on to fix after you've taken over the boat.

Is it normal to accept a minimum 10% before you are able to renegotiate?

[matty40s]

22 minutes ago, PeterCr said:

That could be a bit of a worry then. If the survey finds, say, 4k problems on a 50k boat then it's not within even 10% but it's still a significant amount to take on to fix after you've taken over the boat.

Is it normal to accept a minimum 10% before you are able to renegotiate?

Peter, give James a ring ( yesterdays post) and he can talk you through it.

[David Schweizer]

I assume that the OP is a potential buyer, so the following may not be completely relevant. However, our experience may serve as a warning to those wishing to sell their boat.

Make sure you get a photocopy of the contract you sign at the time of signing. We placed our boat with a brokerage which is now under new ownership, and were not given a copy of the contract. When I later asked for a copy, I was told it was not normal practice to give a copy to customers, but after some discussion one was sent as an attachment to an email. It had coditions which differed from the one we signed, even though the one we were sent had my signature on it! (computer generated?) In particular I recall that the original contract entitled us to free mooring and trade plates for the whole time that the boat remained on brokerage, the copy we received limited this entitlememt to three months after which there was a hefty fee payable. After further uncomfortable discussion they agreed to "waive the fee"

The brokerage failed to secure any interest in our boat and after nearly eight months, we removed our boat from the original brokers and placed it with Braunston Marina. The whole experience was completely different, they provided us with a printed copy of their contract which had both our and their original signatures on it, and spent some time going through the and explaining the conditions. The boat sold at very near the asking price in two weeks.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by David Schweizer

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, PeterCr said:

That could be a bit of a worry then. If the survey finds, say, 4k problems on a 50k boat then it's not within even 10% but it's still a significant amount to take on to fix after you've taken over the boat.

Is it normal to accept a minimum 10% before you are able to renegotiate?

Here is an extract from a recent contract.

The 5% is in  brackets indicating that it can be varied by agreement between the parties - some brokers will insist on10%, some may accept 1%

 

A standard BMF/RYA approved contract states -

5.Defects
5.1.If the inspection, survey or sea trial reveals any defect in the Vessel, its machinery, gear or equipment which was not disclosed to the Purchaser in writing prior to the signing of this Agreement, or if there are any deficiencies in the inventory prepared and attached to this Agreement, for which the aggregate cost of rectification by a competent and reputable shipyard or replacements (on a like for like basis, discounted to second hand prices) is collectively equal to or exceeds [5]% of the purchase price then the Purchaser may give written notice to the Seller or the Broker within 7 days of completion of the inspection, survey and sea trial, whichever is the later, specifying the defects and/or deficiencies and including a copy of all relevant extracts from a surveyor’s or adviser’s report, and either:
5.1.1.reject the Vessel, or
5.1.2.require the Seller to make good the defects and/or deficiencies or make a sufficient reduction in the purchase price to enable the Purchaser to do so. In this case all agreed items of work shall be completed without undue delay and shall be carried out to the express requirements contained in the Notice served by the Purchaser.
For the purposes of this Clause 5.1 and Clause 6.1.2 "completion of survey" shall mean the date of receipt by the Purchaser of a written or emailed survey report.

 

Legally, neither the broker or the seller are obliged to reveal to the potential buyer any 'known' faults with the boat, UNLESS the  specific question is asked, in which case they must reveal what is known.

A standard disclaimer will be included in the brokers Agreement with the Seller, the purpose of which is to protect a broker against complaints by a Buyer that the broker’s published particulars of a boat are wrong, in circumstances where the broker has relied on the Seller’s information when writing those particulars.

The sale does not come under any legal protection of the 'sale of goods act', 'fit for purpose', 'guarantee' etc as it is a private sale.

If the seller (not the broker) is selling 'in the course of a business*' then the full weight of the law DOES apply

* ie if the boat is OWNED by the broker who has taken it in part exchange, or it is a company asset, or being sold by (say) a hire company as they renew their boats.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[frahkn]

4 hours ago, PeterCr said:

That could be a bit of a worry then. If the survey finds, say, 4k problems on a 50k boat then it's not within even 10% but it's still a significant amount to take on to fix after you've taken over the boat.

Is it normal to accept a minimum 10% before you are able to renegotiate?

The 10% figure was in our original contract but the broker was happy content to amend this (in writing) before we signed.

He did not consult with the seller before doing this, indeed we were discouraged from contacting the seller at all.