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Talking engines


PeterCr

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Hi all, as I've said elsewhere we are looking to buy a secondhand narrowboat. Sadly I'm not all that technical and definitely not mechanical.

I see 3 or 4 basic engines in use in narrowboats. Beta, Canaline, Barrus shanks/shire and Vetus. Of course there are others but I'd like to stick with mainstream later model engines. 

Has anyone got some good feedback on good and bad points about these makes of engine?

Is there any one of those engines that is worth staying away from? And if so why? Or are they all good engines and I should be happy with any of them.

Of course how the engine has been treated is another can of worms, but any good advice on what to look for/at in an engine would be warmly welcomed from others much more experienced than me.

Cheers all and happy boating.

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Eventually you will find a boat that 'speaks to you'. You will be smitten and lamb to the slaughter. You will HAVE to buy it, just like an inappropriate lover cannot be resisted.

Then whatever engine it has, you will begin to learn about it. Hopefully it will be something like a BMC or a nice Beta Marine. But even those can be endless trouble (like wimmin). 

Hopefully the boat that selects you will have something sensible like a JP2 or a Kelvin, in which case your soul is saved....

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You may be well advised to research user experiences of the Shanks. For the rest the main problem, if there is one, is the ready availability of spares, especially service spares. Closely after that comes the cost of them and your willingness to buy on-line. Although you are unlikely to find on the Bukh engines (genuine marine engines) are still in production. Although modern engines are a bit of a muchness I would avoid anything with a cam timing belt but all in your list sue timing gears.

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Anything made by Vetus will have genuine spares available at eyewateringly high prices. Fortunately equivalents are usually available at reasonable prices 

My preference would be for a Beta, as they are reliable, long lasting and spares are available at reasonable prices. I have a Beta 43 in my vote.

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7 hours ago, PeterCr said:

I see 3 or 4 basic engines in use in narrowboats. Beta, Canaline, Barrus shanks/shire and Vetus. Of course there are others but I'd like to stick with mainstream later model engines.

You say "3 or 4", but have listed 5!

The "Shanks" engine from Barrus is a totally different beast to the "Shire", and despite what you say, has never become "Mainstream".  The fact that it hasn't probably says it should be avoided.

No idea what you consider "later model", but for years the Isuzu engines marinised by HMI were very much "Mainstream", and the only thing to outnumber them might have been the Kubota engines marinised by Beta.

For a secondhand "mainstream" boat in the (say) 5-10 year old range, I would have thought both Beta and Isuzu very strong choices.  Vetus seems to sometimes attract attention for spares being pricier than some of the alternatives, but how important that is, I'm unsure.  I seem to have read about a lot of engine mounts breaking on Vetus engines.

You don't mention gearboxes.  One with a PRM Newage is invariably a better choice than anything else, and a hydraulically changed model a better choice than the cheaper manual models, (all "in my opinion", of course!).  Hurth boxes are not so well regarded.

Edited by alan_fincher
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10 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

anything pre 1960 should be used as ballast or a mud weight.

I agree. Luckily I was born in the 70's,as a result, the only "Talking engines" I know of are Thomas and Ivor:)

 

 

Edited by rusty69
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5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

.................and anything pre 1960 should be used as ballast or a mud weight.

................unless you wan't something ultra-reliable that doesn't even need heater plugs on the coldest of days, on the very first push of the button or turn of the key.  Then pre-1960 can still beat 21st century, sometimes.

Irrelevant though as a mainstream modern boat is unlikely to be so fitted - it's a specialist thing.

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Beta engines seem t have huge capacity sumps fitted. The Vetus ones I have helped out with oil changes on seem to be half the size. They need much more frequent oil changes as a consequence than Beta engines. Something to consider if you plan to do a lot of cruising, or using the engine for battery charging. You might find yourself bankside in the middle of a cruise doning an oil change, rather than waiting till you get back. A consequence is that oil may have been neglected by a previous owner and the engine more worn.

Jen

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34 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Beta engines seem t have huge capacity sumps fitted. The Vetus ones I have helped out with oil changes on seem to be half the size. They need much more frequent oil changes as a consequence than Beta engines. Something to consider if you plan to do a lot of cruising, or using the engine for battery charging. You might find yourself bankside in the middle of a cruise doning an oil change, rather than waiting till you get back. A consequence is that oil may have been neglected by a previous owner and the engine more worn.

Jen

Beta engines come is shallow sump and deep sump variants, although I think deep sump predominates. But anyway oil changes are trivially easy with the standard sump pump. You just open the valve, pump the oil out into a container (the oil containers from the previous change) and then add the new oil. No grovelling around under a hot engine looking for and undoing the sump plug. Filter is just a spin on cartridge so again very easy with a strap wrench.

I’d want an engine with an integral sump pump.

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

You might find yourself bankside in the middle of a cruise doning an oil change, rather than waiting till you get back.

My Lister was oil change every 100 hours.

When out cruising that meant an oil change every month, it took less time to do than boil the kettle, so whilst SWMBO was making breakfast I'd do the oil change.

Its all about being prepared.

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My boat has a Beta 43, and I'm very pleased it has. It was on my preference list when searching but, as Mike says somewhere above, it's quite likely you'll fall in love with a boat and buy with your heart (at least to an extent). This is a frequent thing because all narrowboats are, by necessity, a compromise.  The tighter your specifications the longer you'll be looking. If the only engine acceptable to you was the Beta 43, say, the field narrows considerably and your rate of success will now depend on whether you'll accept a different layout, inline/cross bed, etc.

Looking at a range of engines as you are opens the field a bit, so I think you're on the right track and you've had some sensible advice above. That said, you should also consider any engine's alternator fit. The Beta 43 has a decent enough starter alternator and also a very well spec'd high power domestic alternator (or even a travel power). This big alternator makes charging your domestic batteries a lot easier.  Check this on any other engines you consider.  Fortunately, there's plenty of Beta 43s out there...! ;):D

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Our old boat had a Barrus Shire 40 which we ran for 4000 hours without any problem. Easy to service, I particularly liked the fact it self bled after changing a fuel filter. It did smoke a bit, they are known for it. It didn't have or need heater plugs for cold starting. Our new boat has a Beta 43 because that's what the boat builder wanted to fit, I didn't have a problem with that. It's done 850 faultless hours and doesn't smoke so much as the Barrus. 

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3 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

Our old boat had a Barrus Shire 40 which we ran for 4000 hours without any problem. Easy to service, I particularly liked the fact it self bled after changing a fuel filter. It did smoke a bit, they are known for it. It didn't have or need heater plugs for cold starting. Our new boat has a Beta 43 because that's what the boat builder wanted to fit, I didn't have a problem with that. It's done 850 faultless hours and doesn't smoke so much as the Barrus. 

I would hope it doesn’t smoke at all! Ours has done 3000 hrs and there is just a hint of smoke for 3 seconds on start up, nothing after that and the oil level never budges.

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3 hours ago, Alway Swilby said:

Our old boat had a Barrus Shire 40 which we ran for 4000 hours without any problem. Easy to service, I particularly liked the fact it self bled after changing a fuel filter. It did smoke a bit, they are known for it. It didn't have or need heater plugs for cold starting. Our new boat has a Beta 43 because that's what the boat builder wanted to fit, I didn't have a problem with that. It's done 850 faultless hours and doesn't smoke so much as the Barrus. 

If I remember correctly at least some Shires are direct injection and that gives advantages and disadvantages. The main advantages are easy or very easy starting from stone cold no glow plugs, and potentially better fuel economy especially at higher speeds and powers. Not that the latter is much of a concern to most inland boaters.

The disadvantage is that they may tend to smoke a bit at low speeds and powers. This is related to smaller cylinder capacities and lack of swirl at low speed in the combustion chamber causing poor combustion.

The Bukh DV36 also tends to smoke as do some well maintained Lister air cooled engines. All direct injected.

 

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5 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

The best in no particular order are Beta, Nanni, Isuzu, others are available don't buy a Shanks but a shire is ok. The very best is a Bukh and anything pre 1960 should be used as ballast or a mud weight.

Don't forget Ecofan, very powerful needs preloading with a couple of massive alternators for electric drive. Only used in winter of course. 

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5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My Lister was oil change every 100 hours.

When out cruising that meant an oil change every month, it took less time to do than boil the kettle, so whilst SWMBO was making breakfast I'd do the oil change.

Its all about being prepared.

that 100 hour oil change interval on the some listers (like my lpws4) is a pain, we hit that in a week sometimes (and keep oil / filters for at least 2 changes on hand)

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7 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

that 100 hour oil change interval on the some listers (like my lpws4) is a pain, we hit that in a week sometimes (and keep oil / filters for at least 2 changes on hand)

Ours was an LPWS4 (and I still have a complete spare engine, parts, manuals & PRM gearbox in my shed)

It only takes 10 minutes to warm the oil and 20 minutes to do the oil and filter change so I never saw it as a big problem.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ours was an LPWS4 (and I still have a complete spare engine, parts, manuals & PRM gearbox in my shed)

It only takes 10 minutes to warm the oil and 20 minutes to do the oil and filter change so I never saw it as a big problem.

I know you like carrying spares Alan, but a complete spare engine and gearbox is silly.

Ours is an LPWS4 too,although I haven't got a spare one

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I carried all the usual parts on the boat but kept the complete engine (with twin alternators and all ancilliaries) and gearbox (+spare pistons etc) at home, if needed I could phone No2 Son, get him to remove (say) the injectors and bring them out to the boat. Nowhere in the country is more than a few hours drive so easier than waiting for parts to be ordered and delivered.

No longer have that boat so guess Its time to think about getting rid.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ours was an LPWS4 (and I still have a complete spare engine, parts, manuals & PRM gearbox in my shed)

It only takes 10 minutes to warm the oil and 20 minutes to do the oil and filter change so I never saw it as a big problem.

takes a bit longer when your engine doesnt have the sump pump (and no sign of it ever being fitted from new)

can't fault the engine, single puff of light smoke when starting and then nothing (unless you have to push it hard). However it's layout on my boat is plain awkward to work on.

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4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I would hope it doesn’t smoke at all! Ours has done 3000 hrs and there is just a hint of smoke for 3 seconds on start up, nothing after that and the oil level never budges.

Yes, that's what I should have said: the Beta doesn't smoke at all. 

4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

If I remember correctly at least some Shires are direct injection and that gives advantages and disadvantages. The main advantages are easy or very easy starting from stone cold no glow plugs, and potentially better fuel economy especially at higher speeds and powers. Not that the latter is much of a concern to most inland boaters.

The disadvantage is that they may tend to smoke a bit at low speeds and powers. This is related to smaller cylinder capacities and lack of swirl at low speed in the combustion chamber causing poor combustion.

The Bukh DV36 also tends to smoke as do some well maintained Lister air cooled engines. All direct injected.

 

Yes, our Shire 40 was a direct injection. No heater plugs fitted.

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I have a Barrus Shire 45. No experience of anything else but very pleased with the Shire. Always starts well (no heater plugs) and fairly easy to work on. Done about 2000 hrs without any issues. Based on a Yanmar engine that is also used in many tractors, mini-diggers etc. I was shocked when I looked into the price of Barrus alternators that I wanted to carry as spares, but managed to find suitable alternatives at sensible prices. 

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2 hours ago, nb Innisfree said:

I believe LPWS4 filter/oil change can be extended to 250 hrs if larger filter is fitted, bit of extra oil needed of course. 

from what I could find the ones that have the larger filter / more oil also have a larger sump

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