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Time limited moorings over the winter months


Gareth E

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Last year CRT announced that from 1 November all time limited moorings, apart from ones marked 'all year', would revert to 14 days, until the end of March. I seem to recall though that this was a trial. I haven't heard anything this winter, does anyone know if this applies this winter i.e. now? 

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1 hour ago, Gareth E said:

Last year CRT announced that from 1 November all time limited moorings, apart from ones marked 'all year', would revert to 14 days, until the end of March. I seem to recall though that this was a trial. I haven't heard anything this winter, does anyone know if this applies this winter i.e. now? 

This applies every winter.  Unless otherwise marked, all VMS that normally have a maximum stay time of less than 14 days become 14 days.

At locations that are marked, some stay times may be relaxed, but not all to as much as to 14 days.  (Parts of Stoke Bruerne would be an example of this)

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14 hours ago, Gareth E said:

Last year CRT announced that from 1 November all time limited moorings, apart from ones marked 'all year', would revert to 14 days, until the end of March. I seem to recall though that this was a trial. I haven't heard anything this winter, does anyone know if this applies this winter i.e. now? 

It’s in the winter moorings FAQ on CRT’s site, page 5.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/mooring/winter-moorings

direct link; 31571-winter-mooring-faq.pdf

 

Edited by Robbo
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29 minutes ago, Robbo said:

It’s in the winter moorings FAQ on CRT’s site, page 5.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/mooring/winter-moorings

direct link; 31571-winter-mooring-faq.pdf

 

Are you sure you have the right page?

That seems to be about paid for winter moorings.

I can't immediately see the stuff about relaxing stay times on short stay visitor moorings.

 

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3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Are you sure you have the right page?

That seems to be about paid for winter moorings.

I can't immediately see the stuff about relaxing stay times on short stay visitor moorings.

 

Yes I’m sure it’s the right page, it’s on page 5 in the FAQ pdf file.

 

Quote

Will I still be able to moor at visitor moorings this winter?

Yes. Where a winter mooring is part of a visitor mooring site, approximately 50% of the site will be winter moorings and the other half of the site will still be available throughout the winter period for visitors to moor for the advertised stay time.

As per our short term mooring framework, most visitor moorings will revert to 14-day stay times between 1 November 2017 and 31 March 2018, unless there is a clear safety or customer need to provide otherwise (exceptions will be clearly signed on site).

Edited by Robbo
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1 hour ago, Robbo said:

It’s in the winter moorings FAQ on CRT’s site, page 5.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/mooring/winter-moorings

direct link; 31571-winter-mooring-faq.pdf

 

Here's the actual link:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/31571-winter-mooring-faq.pdf

Edited by Dave_P
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28 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

If this is the only place it it now mentioned on the CRT web-site, then that would be pretty daft.

The topic of what happens to (free) short stay visitor moorings in winter should, of course, not be mixed up with (paid for) winter moorings - a different and largely unrelated topic.

I know the information used to be there (more completely) on a page dedicated to visitor moorings, rather than to winter moorings, but I had a quick look this morning and failed to find it. (Sadly it's not uusual for good info that was on the CRT site  in a sensible place to disappear).

To answer the question about anywhere threatening £25 overstay charges, I would still say that the official line is that if there are no signs there indicating otherwise, even these revert to 14 days during the winter period.  To go back to my Stole Bruerne example, (which is rife with these signs), some bits like the "museum pound" have specific signs showing a relaxation from2  days to 4 days, in winter - I think, if they've not tinkered with it yet again!  The "long pound" relaxes, (I think again!) from 7 days to 14 days.  I would expect them to only try charging the £25 per day in winter if you exceeded these longer times. 

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For boaters not aware of these rules, what happens in practice?  

What is the best interpretation of this announcement, if you have seen it, or heard about it, or even know where to find it on the CRT website.

But assuming you think it is 14 days everywhere. What will happen in practice if you moor up for 14 days or more. Will you get a notice to move on, or have your name 'took' and a fine of £25 per day( collected daily ?) or totaled up for each day over the 14 () or worse, in excess of the official limit because the '14 days' concession does not apply to that mooring -  with a retrospective invoice dropped in your lap out of the blue. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

 

For boaters not aware of these rules, what happens in practice?  

What is the best interpretation of this announcement, if you have seen it, or heard about it, or even know where to find it on the CRT website.

But assuming you think it is 14 days everywhere. What will happen in practice if you moor up for 14 days or more. Will you get a notice to move on, or have your name 'took' and a fine of £25 per day( collected daily ?) or totaled up for each day over the 14 () or worse, in excess of the official limit because the '14 days' concession does not apply to that mooring -  with a retrospective invoice dropped in your lap out of the blue. 

 

Well if you've not heard of the winter visitor 14 day thingy then you would move to what ever time limit it says and not be overstaying at all.   If you moor over 14days you will be overstaying.   If you've just heard on the cut and not confirmed it, then your an idiot for believing anything what people say and not validating it.

Edited by Robbo
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1 hour ago, Robbo said:

Well if you've not heard of the winter visitor 14 day thingy then you would move to what ever time limit it says and not be overstaying at all.   If you moor over 14 , then days you will be overstaying.   If you've just heard on the cut and not confirmed it, then your an idiot for believing anything what people say and not validating it.

Yes ! If not knowing then you would move on (I guess), but on the premise that it is thought to be 14 days (but not official) - what happens if you are still moored there after you have exceeded the prevailing time limit ? If a fee applies, are you charge daily? how and when do you pay? is it daily,  or a covert lump sum clocked up for the duration of your stay.

You probably guess I am not a continuous cruiser.

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10 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Yes ! If not knowing then you would move on (I guess), but on the premise that it is thought to be 14 days (but not official) - what happens if you are still moored there after you have exceeded the prevailing time limit ? If a fee applies, are you charge daily? how and when do you pay? is it daily,  or a covert lump sum clocked up for the duration of your stay.

You probably guess I am not a continuous cruiser.

Where CRT do attempt to collect the £25 overstay charges, then in theory you are told that they are about to become due before you first accrue them.  You cannot pay them to anybody at the site, or pre-book andpay in an expectation to overstay, (which is why many consider them a fine or penalty, not a "facility charge".  They will be invoiced to you after the event.

Many people believe CRT do not have the powers to levy these fines/penalties, (ahem! - "facility charges"), and AFAIK, they have never pursued anybody through debt collection services or the courts for non-payment.

You could therefore conclude paying them is actually "optional".

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3 hours ago, Horace42 said:

 

For boaters not aware of these rules, what happens in practice?  

What is the best interpretation of this announcement, if you have seen it, or heard about it, or even know where to find it on the CRT website.

But assuming you think it is 14 days everywhere. What will happen in practice if you moor up for 14 days or more. Will you get a notice to move on, or have your name 'took' and a fine of £25 per day( collected daily ?) or totaled up for each day over the 14 () or worse, in excess of the official limit because the '14 days' concession does not apply to that mooring -  with a retrospective invoice dropped in your lap out of the blue. 

 

I think you have your logic upside-down. For a boater unaware of the announcement, they would think they are obliged to move on after (say) 2 days at a 2 days time restricted mooring, not knowing they could stay for 2 weeks. They'd not be de facto mooring up for 14 days everywhere (and if they were, they'd not appreciate the simmer/winter change so its a different issue for another debate).

If the mooring is an exception to the rule (ie the time limit doesn't alter to 2 weeks in the winter) then it would be locally signed anyway. But they'd not be thinking they could stay for 2 weeks (because they didn't read the announcement buried on the website or in a newsletter) anyway, and even if they did hear of it, it would need to be locally signed to be anything other than this 2 weeks.

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9 hours ago, Midnight said:

Purely out of interest 'cos we went there in summer, what about Oxford where the signs say £25 per day after 2 days?

 

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Was that the river?


I doubt it - I assume the canal........

Linky.

Edited by alan_fincher
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2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Where CRT do attempt to collect the £25 overstay charges, then in theory you are told that they are about to become due before you first accrue them.  You cannot pay them to anybody at the site, or pre-book andpay in an expectation to overstay, (which is why many consider them a fine or penalty, not a "facility charge".  They will be invoiced to you after the event.

Many people believe CRT do not have the powers to levy these fines/penalties, (ahem! - "facility charges"), and AFAIK, they have never pursued anybody through debt collection services or the courts for non-payment.

You could therefore conclude paying them is actually "optional".

Thanks for your reply. I don't know, but I would expect collection of outstanding fees/fines does not need court action. CRT can Just patiently wait for the licence to expire - and then refuse to renew it until all overdue charges have been paid in full.

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30 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Thanks for your reply. I don't know, but I would expect collection of outstanding fees/fines does not need court action. CRT can Just patiently wait for the licence to expire - and then refuse to renew it until all overdue charges have been paid in full.

Yes, but has anyone actually had an overstay charge? 

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3 hours ago, Horace42 said:

Thanks for your reply. I don't know, but I would expect collection of outstanding fees/fines does not need court action. CRT can Just patiently wait for the licence to expire - and then refuse to renew it until all overdue charges have been paid in full.

But that would be unlawful. Statute requires the licence to be issued when the specified conditions are met. Paying off a debt for something else is not one of the conditions.

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3 hours ago, Horace42 said:

Thanks for your reply. I don't know, but I would expect collection of outstanding fees/fines does not need court action. CRT can Just patiently wait for the licence to expire - and then refuse to renew it until all overdue charges have been paid in full.

No they most certainly can't.

That has been clarified with them.

They cannot use money you supply to pay a licence to clear other unrelated charges they have invoiced you with.

They cannot lawfully refuse you a licence because you have not met those other demands for payment.

This is not my interpretation - I have sat in meetings with CRT staff where they acknowledge this to be the case.

 

 

3 hours ago, pearley said:

Yes, but has anyone actually had an overstay charge? 

Not me personally, but yes, they do try invoicing them.

I don't know stats, but my understanding is some people pay, and some do not.  If they don't then I have heard nothing about further action ever being attempted against them.

I think there may have been FOI requrests raised about this topic, if you are sufficiently interesed to seach the WhatDoTheyKnow.Com website to see.

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