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Is it worth getting a home mooring?


DavidAN

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5 hours ago, DavidAN said:

I could find no information about sleeping on a home leisure mooring, only that living on one is not allowed.  I even found that one marina had gradings for their mooring plans which stated how much live-aboard usage was allowed for each. The impression I got was that home leisure moorings are for 'storing' a boat.

If it is normal to sleep on them for several days at a time then I'm happy with that.

If you are talking about marina moorings rather than CRT leisure moorings, then it is a matter for each marina more so than any regulations.  In many marinas the planing permission they were granted would not allow boats to be used as a permanent place of residence, but that does not prevent people spending a long time on their boat.  The interpretation of this would be down to individual marinas, but I can't see many having an issue with what you have suggested.  However some marinas could, I know of one couple why were staying on their boat while there was building work being done of their house, and the marina told them to leave as they were living on the boat, so pick your marina with your usage in mind.

 

5 hours ago, DavidAN said:

I don't think you have the right to say what is decent or what is not. You seem to be assuming that I want to live on a boat for fun rather than absolute necessity. Is it decent behavior to live in a car or live on the streets? 

If your reason for living on a boat is that it is cheaper than a house, make certain you have done your costings carefully, as most would say it is not cheaper, just a better lifestyle.

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5 hours ago, DavidAN said:

I could find no information about sleeping on a home leisure mooring, only that living on one is not allowed.  I even found that one marina had gradings for their mooring plans which stated how much live-aboard usage was allowed for each. The impression I got was that home leisure moorings are for 'storing' a boat.

If it is normal to sleep on them for several days at a time then I'm happy with that.

Our Marina requires that you only stay onboard for a maximum of XX nights in succession which I think your pattern would easily fall into. 

"

The Marina is not an approved residential mooring. The planning conditions for the marina state that the maximum period of stay on board a Boat within the marina shall be restricted to two consecutive weeks in any 12 month period. Owners are expected to comply with this condition"

 

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I think the OP’s questions are genuine, perfectly reasonable and not setting out to test the boundaries.

yes of course you can sleep in the boat on your home mooring, the only question is for how long. Some marinas/moorings have strict rules, other marinas have no rules, and most are somewhere between the two. Find out the policy (by talking rather than in writing, I’d suggest) before committing to a particular mooring.

when you have a home mooring, CRT are less fussed about your cruising pattern, and what you propose sounds fine. Although by law you can stay in one place for more than 14 days if you have a home mooring, CRT don’t like it and will hound you and thus it is best avoided unless you like a fight.

if you are a leisure boater, it’s pretty inevitable that your boat will be found either on its mooring, or quite close to the mooring. This is normal usage. But what upsets people including CRT is when you have a home mooring that you never or rarely use, and use that as justification to spend long periods moored in prime locations.

the only other thing to bear in mind is that if you are not on a residential mooring you really need a home address, but that can of course be friends or relatives if they agree.

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6 hours ago, DavidAN said:

I don't think you have the right to say what is decent or what is not. You seem to be assuming that I want to live on a boat for fun rather than absolute necessity. Is it decent behavior to live in a car or live on the streets? 

Only trying to answer your questions and give helpful information. Never mind hey?

My parting comment, the canal is generally a close knit community, if you come here and don't behave in a decent way then you will create trouble for all those around you and soon become very unpopular.

..............Dave

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We have two boats and two moorings, both in Marinas that are part of a group of 20 marinas.

The criteria for a leisure mooring is that you can spend 365 days a year ’living on board’, but no more than 30 consecutive days on board in the marina, ie you must either sleep somewhere else I night per month, or, take your boat out of the marina 1 night per month – just outside the entrance is a handy spot.

You will only be allowed to take a leisure mooring on production of a Council Tax bill  (or other  acceptable proof) that your primary residence is elsewhere.

Legally it all boils down to where is your primary residence, not how much you use it, similarly to the Judges statement in C&RT vs Myers case :

The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect. The boat is still subject to the restriction that it must not stay in the same place for more than 14 days but there is nothing whatever to stop it being shuffled between two locations quite close together provided they are far enough apart to constitute different places. If those who are causing the overcrowding at popular spots have home moorings anywhere in the country the present regime cannot control their overuse of the popular spots. Such an owner could cruise to and fro along the Kennet & Avon canal near Bristol and the home mooring could be in Birmingham and totally unused.    

 

Substitute “that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used” with “to have a leisure mooring you must have a primary residence, it does not say that it must be used”

No doubt the ’legal experts’ will argue that it is not your primary residence if you are not spending the majority of your time there – however, the Marina group have decided that having a council tax bill in your name proves you have a ‘primary residence’  and can stay on your boat ’fulltime’

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13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Someone more cynical than me might be tempted to wonder if the OP is a troll in the original sense of the word, so ambiguously worded is it, and so carefully crafted it appears to be to probe the limits of the various regs. 

You think that he may live under a bridge demanding tolls? :P

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Of course you could live on a boat for near thirty years, keep yer gob shut, not ask questions on a an open public forum, comply with the few very easy rules of our fabulous lifestyle. Its simply known as " Keeping your head down " You will have no problems.

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7 hours ago, DavidAN said:

I don't think you have the right to say what is decent or what is not. You seem to be assuming that I want to live on a boat for fun rather than absolute necessity. Is it decent behavior to live in a car or live on the streets? 

Not being funny David, but if you're not wanting to live on a boat for fun, I'd urge you to think again about what other options you might have. I'm guessing you can't afford to buy a house but can afford to buy a boat, but have you properly weighed the month-to-month costs of living aboard against those of renting a flat or even a room? It might not be much cheaper if at all, especially if you pay for a mooring, and if the lifestyle doesn't appeal  you there's  risk that living aboard will just feel like one chore after another - move the boat, empty the loo, fill up with water, fill up with diesel, change the gas bottle, top up the batteries...  I'm planning to move aboard myself soon and although I hope and expect it to be cheaper to CC than to live in a family house mortgage and all, I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't really want to live on the water. 

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45 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Of course not. Somebody else expressed the sentiment. Not my opinion at all, as I stated in my first five words.  

You can remember your first 5 words, I suppose one of mine must have been mamma but I have no idea what the others are 

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

Only trying to answer your questions and give helpful information. Never mind hey?

My parting comment, the canal is generally a close knit community, if you come here and don't behave in a decent way then you will create trouble for all those around you and soon become very unpopular.

..............Dave

I didn't find it helpful because you claimed (apparently on behalf of the community) that it would not be decent. You did not explain why it would not be decent or your reasoning for it, you just claimed it as fact. It seems that others would not have a problem with what I was contemplating, so you cannot be speaking for everybody. You even said, "if you come here and don't behave in a decent way". Is that friendly? It's certainly not the way I would express things to a new member of a forum who is simply trying to get some information. It seem more accusing than anything else, which is a divisive way of doing things.

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26 minutes ago, magictime said:

Not being funny David, but if you're not wanting to live on a boat for fun, I'd urge you to think again about what other options you might have. I'm guessing you can't afford to buy a house but can afford to buy a boat, but have you properly weighed the month-to-month costs of living aboard against those of renting a flat or even a room? It might not be much cheaper if at all, especially if you pay for a mooring, and if the lifestyle doesn't appeal  you there's  risk that living aboard will just feel like one chore after another - move the boat, empty the loo, fill up with water, fill up with diesel, change the gas bottle, top up the batteries...  I'm planning to move aboard myself soon and although I hope and expect it to be cheaper to CC than to live in a family house mortgage and all, I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't really want to live on the water.

I have no contacts (none that I can rely on) in the UK and no references. It is actually easier for an ex-convict to get accommodation than it is for me. I really didn't want to go into details, but it would just be a case of buying a very cheap GRP cruiser. With a cheap mooring (I can't afford a residential one) + insurance, canal licence, reserve money, etc, it is more expensive in the short term, but it does seem do-able until I can get references from doing voluntary work and find a job which could take half a year. Time spent in the UK looking for an apartment can also be expensive with no guarantee of results - having a boat as a base seems a good alternative. I was never thinking of a leisure mooring being a long-term solution. I did look into finding a residential mooring, but they are simply too expensive at the moment. After I find work, a residential mooring would be an option.

(I wasn't saying that living on a boat wouldn't be fun. It's just not my primary reason for wanting to do so.)

 

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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

But what upsets people including CRT is when you have a home mooring that you never or rarely use, and use that as justification to spend long periods moored in prime locations.

I didn't know this. I would have expected that people pay a premium for moorings near prime locations precisely because they would like to visit them often.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Of course you could live on a boat for near thirty years, keep yer gob shut, not ask questions on a an open public forum, comply with the few very easy rules of our fabulous lifestyle. Its simply known as " Keeping your head down " You will have no problems.

My preference is to abide by the law and avoid any possible problems. It's just way I like to do things.

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Please note that what Alan said about council tax bills may be the policy of the marinas he uses. I have never been asked for a council tax bill but then I have always been able to give them a postal address.

Its seems to me that as far as CaRT are the law and CaRT "rules" may well be at odds with each other. I find it almost impossible to abide by CaRT "rules" when taking CaRT's systems into account but very easy to abide by the law and CaRT's rules in the absence of their  systems. The keep your head down and try to abide by teh "rules" is very sound.

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30 minutes ago, DavidAN said:

I didn't know this. I would have expected that people pay a premium for moorings near prime locations precisely because they would like to visit them often.

I think you slightly miss the point because what you say is reasonable. What I was thinking about is someone who gets a mooring in a cheap part of the country, but spends all their time elsewhere is a small area and prime location, rarely if ever using the mooring. The mooring is then what CRT tend to call a “ghost mooring”. I think the test is that if you have the mooring simply to keep CRT off your back, avoiding the CCing rules, and don’t really ever intend to use it, then it’s a ghost mooring. By law I don’t think there’s much CRT can do about it. But that doesn’t stop them trying!

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18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I think you slightly miss the point because what you say is reasonable. What I was thinking about is someone who gets a mooring in a cheap part of the country, but spends all their time elsewhere is a small area and prime location, rarely if ever using the mooring. The mooring is then what CRT tend to call a “ghost mooring”. I think the test is that if you have the mooring simply to keep CRT off your back, avoiding the CCing rules, and don’t really ever intend to use it, then it’s a ghost mooring. By law I don’t think there’s much CRT can do about it. But that doesn’t stop them trying!

After reading this, I looked up another thread on ghost mooring. I gave up after the first few posts as I saw it's another very divisive issue that people are going to argue about forever. 

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13 minutes ago, DavidAN said:

After reading this, I looked up another thread on ghost mooring. I gave up after the first few posts as I saw it's another very divisive issue that people are going to argue about forever. 

You are correct, and have found that innocence [aka ignorance] is no excuse on this forum.

Best to never ask a Q to which you don't know the answer, and then when you challenge the answer, expect a big hit from fan debris.

If you survive your first two weeks, you then become one of the CW discussion forum,  and in less than two years, they will forget you are a newby.

 

Edited by LadyG
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2 hours ago, DavidAN said:

I have no contacts (none that I can rely on) in the UK and no references. It is actually easier for an ex-convict to get accommodation than it is for me. I really didn't want to go into details, but it would just be a case of buying a very cheap GRP cruiser. With a cheap mooring (I can't afford a residential one) + insurance, canal licence, reserve money, etc, it is more expensive in the short term, but it does seem do-able until I can get references from doing voluntary work and find a job which could take half a year. Time spent in the UK looking for an apartment can also be expensive with no guarantee of results - having a boat as a base seems a good alternative. I was never thinking of a leisure mooring being a long-term solution. I did look into finding a residential mooring, but they are simply too expensive at the moment. After I find work, a residential mooring would be an option.

(I wasn't saying that living on a boat wouldn't be fun. It's just not my primary reason for wanting to do so.)

 

Fair enough. And don't be too quick to assume you need an official 'residential' mooring to stay on the right side of the law long term. For a start, I'm not sure you personally would be doing anything illegal by living on a leisure mooring if the mooring operator was prepared to turn a blind eye (although the mooring operator would be ignoring the need for planning permission).  But also, depending on the rules at particular marinas etc., it might be completely legitimate to live on a leisure mooring for good chunks of the year, just as it's perfectly legitimate to live in a static caravan in many holiday parks for maybe 10 or 11 months of the year, because in theory it's still not a permanent residence. It might simply depend on whether you're happy to keep doing some cruising.

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2 hours ago, DavidAN said:

I have no contacts (none that I can rely on) in the UK and no references. It is actually easier for an ex-convict to get accommodation than it is for me. I really didn't want to go into details, but it would just be a case of buying a very cheap GRP cruiser. With a cheap mooring (I can't afford a residential one) + insurance, canal licence, reserve money, etc, it is more expensive in the short term, but it does seem do-able until I can get references from doing voluntary work and find a job which could take half a year. Time spent in the UK looking for an apartment can also be expensive with no guarantee of results - having a boat as a base seems a good alternative. I was never thinking of a leisure mooring being a long-term solution. I did look into finding a residential mooring, but they are simply too expensive at the moment. After I find work, a residential mooring would be an option.

(I wasn't saying that living on a boat wouldn't be fun. It's just not my primary reason for wanting to do so.)

 

Then you will be fine. Either continuously cruise, and move enough to keep off CRT's radar, or take a home mooring where the mooring operator looks the other way as far as residential use is concerned.

If you CC your biggest issue will be providing sufficient electricity to meet your needs and keep your batteries from dying (see endless threads on the forum). You will also have to deal with filling with water, emptying the loo or pumpout tank, buying diesel and solid fuel and exchanging gas bottles.

These latter things get easier on a home mooring that has facilities (and many don't). Don't use the "residential' word, just say you stay on board a lot. Most mooring operators won't want proof you pay council tax elsewhere. Take trips away from the mooring so you are not there full time.  There are organisations out there that offer mail forwarding and accommodation address services specifically for boaters if you need a land-based address or somewhere to receive mail.

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I sailed for years in a litle wooden yacht that had no battery whatsoever,  oil lamps. Electricity is  not essential.

Wood is hell to maintain.

But this was summer only. We were hardy souls in todays terms, and I was a slip of a girl.

Glass fibre boats need insulation , heat, and ventilation. 

Best advice is to spend plenty of time in the pub [maybe behind the bar], and sleep on board in a four season sleeping bag with a hot water bottle and plenty of fresh air.

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19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

Best advice is to spend plenty of time in the pub

Heed this well!! It is the single most informative and correct posting ever on this forum!!

Edited by mrsmelly
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3 hours ago, DavidAN said:

but it would just be a case of buying a very cheap GRP cruiser.

I would respect fully suggest that this is not an ideal introduction to canal boating and living on a boat.

A Cheap (£5000) 20-25 foot GRP Cruiser will often not be equipped as anything more than as a 'day-boat' they may have :

1) An Outboard engine

2) A Petrol Engine

3) No means of water heating

4) No shower

5) A Very small water tank

6) Limited storage space

7) No fridge

8) No form of heating

9) No insulation.

An 'expensive' (£20k-£40k) 30-40 foot GRP cruiser will (normally) have :

1) An inboard Engine

2) A diesel engine

3) Built in water heater via a calorifier and/or a gas or even coal fired back boiler.

4) A Shower

5) A 'useful' sized liveaboard water tank (600 litres+ ??)

6) Well  planned and laid out storage

7) A fridge and 'full kitchen' maybe even a freezer and microwave.

8) Central heating - maybe diesel, gas or coal fired

9) Be well insulated

 

It may be worth while investigating the implications of the options shown under points 1 & 2

 

Maybe if you would be prepared to indicate what sort of budget you have for the 'cheap cruiser' people could offer suggestions or alternatives.

 

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would respect fully suggest that this is not an ideal introduction to canal boating and living on a boat.

A Cheap (£5000) 20-25 foot GRP Cruiser will often not be equipped as anything more than as a 'day-boat' they may have :

1) An Outboard engine

2) A Petrol Engine

3) No means of water heating

4) No shower

5) A Very small water tank

6) Limited storage space

7) No fridge

8) No form of heating

9) No insulation.

An 'expensive' (£20k-£40k) 30-40 foot GRP cruiser will (normally) have :

1) An inboard Engine

2) A diesel engine

3) Built in water heater via a calorifier and/or a gas or even coal fired back boiler.

4) A Shower

5) A 'useful' sized liveaboard water tank (600 litres+ ??)

6) Well  planned and laid out storage

7) A fridge and 'full kitchen' maybe even a freezer and microwave.

8) Central heating - maybe diesel, gas or coal fired

9) Be well insulated

 

It may be worth while investigating the implications of the options shown under points 1 & 2

 

Maybe if you would be prepared to indicate what sort of budget you have for the 'cheap cruiser' people could offer suggestions or alternatives.

 

"I would respect fully suggest that this is not an ideal introduction to canal boating and living on a boat."

You are definitely correct in this, but this  is what people say about camping or caravaning or traveling, etc. Some people just cannot afford to do things 'properly'. People always suggest amounts way over what is actually needed on the most basic level.

Sorry, I'm not prepared to say what my budget is - it will be way below what you consider normal. All I can say is that I have been intensively investigating the costs to do this at  minimal level and it is do-able and I know of other people who have done the same. It's actually possible to get a running boat with BSC without serious osmosis for much much less than you are saying - £5000 is a very common Brokerage price for a clean-looking GRP. Of course, at £1500 it would be foolish to buy one even though it's possible to find them at that price, but I already know the places where I will be buying mine and at the moment I'm not planning to pay anything like £5000. The only important thing to me at this stage is that it doesn't look horrible on the outside, the hull is not in catastrophic condition and the motor runs smoothly (In saying that, if I can scrape some more money together it will be more.) 

As for your numbered points, (from the cheap GRP list):

1. Beggars can't be choosers

2. A real pain, but beggars can't be choosers

3. I can buy a camping stove

4. I've managed in worse situations and still kept myself cleaner than the average person (I still can't understand the excuses some people give for not keeping clean when camping etc. - if people could just admit that they can't be bothered then OK)

5. Not a problem - drinking water will be bottled. Not much needed for washing.

6. I don't need a lot of storage space - I will be not bringing much back with me from Europe (relatively speaking).

7. I can buy a small cheap 3-way fridge.

8. and 9. I am starting sometime in April, so I will manage - not ideal, but it will be easier than camping in cold weather, so I don't see the problem.

The worst thing I can think of is not having electricity!

I'm not saying that it's not going to be a long hard slog, because it will. I'm prepared for the fact that it could all go wrong - I'm bringing my camping gear with me, so if it does, I'll be off to Scotland (Brrrh).

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14 minutes ago, DavidAN said:

The worst thing I can think of is not having electricity!

If this is the case then DONOT buy a boat with an outboard engine.

Outboard engines have a very low electrical output – typically 5 to7amps which is sufficient to recharge the starter battery but not enough to charge a ‘domestic bank’ unless you either run the engine for 29-30 hours per day, or, watch TV for only 1hour per month and only recharge your phone once per week.

A 3-way fridge is designed to be only used on 12v when the engine is running as it has no thermostatic control and will be drawing around 10 amps.

 

This all changes if you have taken a mooring which has mains power (a 220v land line) to the boat.

Have a look at my ’signature line’ (below this post)

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