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12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Baseplates don't need blacking...

Maybe not if your boat is made from good quality steel which mine and many I see in our dry dock aren't.
The best example I saw was a 32 year old Norton Canes which had been extended some time ago. The original steel was in excellent condition, the 10ft extended base had to be welded up this year.

Edited by Midnight
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22 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And why would that matter?

Who would I send up the inside of my new flue at home.......to clean it?

(I was planning on using my granddughter.. )

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5 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Maybe not if your boat is made from good quality steel which mine and many I see in our dry dock aren't.
The best example I saw was a 32 year old Norton Canes which had been extended some time ago. The original steel was in excellent condition, the 10ft extended base had to be welded up this year.

 

That is most interesting. 

Until now all posts blaming the quality of the steel have been countered by people (including me) saying the rate of rusting is noting to do with steel quality, and steel quality is tightly controlled. 

Your post is the first good evidence I've ever seen that the rate of corrosion of steel DOES vary by batch. Thank you...

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13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Baseplates don't need blacking...

Wow!  That opens a whole new can of worms.

Rule of thumb.  Any of the baseplate that is shiny......don't bother blacking it will be rubbed off.

If the baseplate is rusty.......clean and black it, it will benefit from it.

(Advice from a VERY well respected surveyor, now deceased)

George

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16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Therefore your statement that children are necessary isn't strictly correct is it?

Whether it would matter or not is irrelevent, children are necessary for the continuation of the human race, therefore to say that children are an indulgence and not necessary is to me, a strange comment. If you agree that they are not necessary then that is your view and I respect that, even though I find it a strange one.

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That is most interesting. 

Until now all posts blaming the quality of the steel have been countered by people (including me) saying the rate of rusting is noting to do with steel quality, and steel quality is tightly controlled. 

Your post is the first good evidence I've ever seen that the rate of corrosion of steel DOES vary by batch. Thank you...

Shame you don't live nearer Mike if you visited our dry dock a few times you would be amazed at the variation.

A 12 year old French and Peel in last week had hardly any pitting underneath. My boat, a year older - just had the 4mm pits welded, sand-blasted and coated with two-pack.

Maybe we should start a new thread "To black or not to black".

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9 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Shame you don't live nearer Mike if you visited our dry dock a few times you would be amazed at the variation.

A 12 year old French and Peel in last week had hardly any pitting underneath. My boat, a year older - just had the 4mm pits welded, sand-blasted and coated with two-pack.

Maybe we should start a new thread "To black or not to black".

 

When Simon replaced the baseplates and footings on one of my boats, he recommended I pay extra for steel that had been factory primed, as it would last a LOT longer. So I did. The steel looked as though it is just sprayed with red oxide but Simon said there was more to it than that. I should have asked for more details.

I wonder if Norton Canes build using this factory-primed steel. Does anyone reading this know more about this type of steel?

On the other hand I have a 26 year old boat with no pitting whatsoever, and I rather doubt that was built from anything special.

And on the other, other hand(!), people have been saying steel from 25 years ago was better than today's ever since I first started boating, back in 1977.

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1 hour ago, Rickent said:

I think you will find that children are necessary, unfortunately without them the human race would be extinct within one generation.

That’s fine, I’ll be dead by then. Then the planet will have a chance to recover. It’s going to happen sooner or later anyway (extinction of the human species, I mean). Just a matter of time.

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I wonder if Norton Canes build using this factory-primed steel. Does anyone reading this know more about this type of steel?

 

 

I would suggest it is grit blasted to remove mill scale then primed.  Most boatyards won't allow grit blasting on site so it

gets left on the steel.

George

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1 minute ago, furnessvale said:

I would suggest it is grit blasted to remove mill scale then primed.  Most boatyards won't allow grit blasting on site so it

gets left on the steel.

George

 

That sounds likely. 

Building a boat from grit blasted steel seems imminently sensible and would be quite a bit more expensive. The mill scale shedding as the steel ages would obviously make the paint/blacking fall off too. Or does it? I don't see many boats around with topsides obviously suffering from mill scale shedding. 

 

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2 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I would suggest it is grit blasted to remove mill scale then primed.  Most boatyards won't allow grit blasting on site so it

gets left on the steel.

George

I can see why, after blasting my base-plate it took 4 of us 3 hours to sweep up the dry dock.

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9 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Wow!  That opens a whole new can of worms.

Rule of thumb.  Any of the baseplate that is shiny......don't bother blacking it will be rubbed off.

If the baseplate is rusty.......clean and black it, it will benefit from it.

(Advice from a VERY well respected surveyor, now deceased)

George

Wot about if the baseplate is covered in mussels? Black over them?

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10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

When Simon replaced the baseplates and footings on one of my boats, he recommended I pay extra for steel that had been factory primed, as it would last a LOT longer. So I did. The steel looked as though it is just sprayed with red oxide but Simon said there was more to it than that. I should have asked for more details.

I wonder if Norton Canes build using this factory-primed steel. Does anyone reading this know more about this type of steel?

On the other hand I have a 26 year old boat with no pitting whatsoever, and I rather doubt that was built from anything special.

And on the other, other hand(!), people have been saying steel from 25 years ago was better than today's ever since I first started boating, back in 1977.

Factory primed is what it says on the tin. It is sections supplied with a primer applied which should enable a good mechanical bond between the paint system and the steel. It isn't a type of steel as such.

Pickling is a standard method for chemically removing mill scale but that isn't easy for large plates. Mill scale can also be removed mechanically.

Picking up on the evidence of corrosion and steel type/age I just see Midnight's observations as adding to the considerable body of evidence that demonstrates there is no significant correlation between age and corrosion.Also I suspect there is no significant variation in the steel type used in UK narrowboat building in the past 50 years.

Certainly my professional experience - on a very much more controlled sample than narrowboats - suggests corrosion of steel in normal ambient conditions isn't a major issue. Significant corrosion requires catalysts and/or agents.

JP

And how did a thread about dogs in a marina get here?

Edited by Captain Pegg
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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

Pickling is a standard method for chemically removing mill scale but that isn't easy for large plates. Mill scale can also be removed mechanically.

 

Pickling! That's something else Simon said had been done to my steel before factory priming.

Pickled and primed steel. Is that much different from rank el cheapo unpainted steel with the mill scale painted over? Won't the mill scale stay stuck on for decades anyway?

 

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15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Pickling! That's something else Simon said had been done to my steel before factory priming.

Pickled and primed steel. Is that much different from rank el cheapo unpainted steel with the mill scale painted over? Won't the mill scale stay stuck on for decades anyway?

 

It can stay stuck but more likely to detach itself. Typically big swings in temperature cause differential expansion and it falls off. Hitting it with a hammer after a very deep frost is a good way to remove it. Get it off and then prime and paint it.

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12 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Baseplates don't need blacking...

On balance I would say that if you can do it then you should.

Your baseplate isn't going to rust away because it's a thick bit of steel and there is very little oxygen present in the water. However there  is plenty of evidence of pitting on baseplates and a lot of conjecture about how they occur. If whatever it is - and my guess is chlorides in the water - is prevented from coming into contact with the steel then pitting will be avoided. OK so you may not be able to access all of the baseplate and some may get rubbed off but most will stay on and therefore most of the baseplate will be protected. That may just be the difference between spot weld repair and overplating. The cost of a couple of coats on the bottom is modest compared to the cost of docking.

For the record although my boat has previously been blacked on the bottom it wasn't when it was done recently.

JP

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1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

On balance I would say that if you can do it then you should.

Your baseplate isn't going to rust away because it's a thick bit of steel and there is very little oxygen present in the water. However there  is plenty of evidence of pitting on baseplates and a lot of conjecture about how they occur. If whatever it is - and my guess is chlorides in the water - is prevented from coming into contact with the steel then pitting will be avoided. OK so you may not be able to access all of the baseplate and some may get rubbed off but most will stay on and therefore most of the baseplate will be protected. That may just be the difference between spot weld repair and overplating. The cost of a couple of coats on the bottom is modest compared to the cost of docking.

For the record although my boat has previously been blacked on the bottom it wasn't when it was done recently.

JP

I don't see how this can be anything other than steel quality and I'm not sure the fish would agree there's little oxygen 20" below the water-line.

The Norton Canes boat I mentioned has never had the base-plate blacked. It is berthed at Ripon where the water is very 'clean' judging by the mussels that attach to boats. Our boat was there too from launch for about 8 years. I discovered serious pitting (covering about 80% of the base, less at each end) and up to 4mm deep (looked like a cave) within a year of moving. Strangely the steel around the pitting was quite intact and shiny after wire brushing before applying the blacking. Two years on there was little 'rubbing off' despite navigating some shallow canals - however this could be one advantage of serious pitting. From new, Midnight's hull sides where sand-blasted and two-packed and they still look as good as new apart from the odd scratch. I only wish the base-plate had been given the same treatment.

I've also seen several boats from a well-known low-cost North West based company, some just a few years old with severe rusty delamination on the base-plate - not at all like the pitting on Midnight.

All this leads me to the conclusion not all steel is the same, so blacking underneath is very good insurance.

Dogs? What dogs?

Edited by Midnight
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On 14/11/2017 at 11:26, Psycloud said:

Isn't that why the public are not allowed to carry guns and knives, buy high %age hydrogen peroxide or take certain items on aeroplanes? 

No contextual similarity here.  We are talking about dog shit and inconsiderate owners.  Not sure how the principle transfers to murderers as simply as you suggest and it would be good to maintain on topic.

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