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Charging of domestic batteries

rowland al

By rowland al
in Boat Equipment

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smileypete Veteran II

smileypete

Posted
Posted (edited)

Maybe check the specific gravities of the Trojans after a full charge, with a hydrometer.

If they're all over the place then the batts need an equalisation charge to help get them back on track. This will need careful monitoring of charge current, a programmable solar controller or charger, and following the usual safety precautions (on the Trojan website or google The Battery FAQ)

Reading in between the lines the batt's may have been charged at too low a voltage and as said lost some capacity due to sulphation, there's plenty of info on the Trojan website on charge voltages etc.

With hindsight you may have been better off with leisure batteries from a reasonably good make; Varta, Banner, Numax etc.

Edited by smileypete
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Tony Brooks Veteran II

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Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, rowland al said:

Oh gawd, I'm really struggling now.

To take your points in turn Tony.

I was lead to believe (no pun intended) that lead acid batteries like to run between 50% and 100%. Being a 'real' CC'er (no controversy intended), we do charge them up for around 5-6 hours a day. I understood this was a good thing. 

The measurements I gave you are indeed at resting (standing).I never go below 12.0v. So I don't think they are being discharged too much, I don't think the battery bank is too small for purpose (no electric fridge, washing machine or dishwasher. who I pay anyway) and the normal charging voltage is 14.4V.

Thanks for your explaination of sulphation, that makes a lot of sense but we don't leave the batteries for more than a few days.

All understood on my old ampmeter arrangement. That might be misleading me. What's a remote shunt and 'tick' wire?

Still confused but now learning something. :)

 

 

1.  As explained it should be THICK wire.

2. We must agree to differ on states of charge v rested voltage. I know different battery construction/materials can make minor differences but I view the Trojan data as potentially a product of their marketing department. If I had Trojans I would stick with the more generally recognised figures. If Trojan are correct then doing so will only be advantageous to the batteries. If they are not then accepting their figures will do the batteries no good at all.

3. 14.4 volts  should be fine for most batteries but some on here suggest Trojans need a higher voltage and regular equalising at  15V+ to get the best from them.

4. Sulphation is cumulative so even leaving it "a few days" will gradually allow the build up of sulphation. See some of the discussions about Mike the Boilerman's batteries.

5. If you are going from less than fully charged to half charged as you and your figures claim or from less than fully charged to 25% charged in one night I would suggest that you have no capacity left for sulphation so your bank is too small but its your call. In fact you may once have had sufficient extra capacity but it is now sulphated up and lost.

6. A remote shunt is a brass bar with an exceptionally low but known electrical resistance. It will only cause a few millivolts of voltdrop with a full load passing through it so it will have no practical effect on the charging. That voltdrop will be proportional to the current (Amps) flowing so a millivolot meter with amps on ist scale will show the current flowing through the shunt.

 

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MtB Veteran II

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Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, rowland al said:

I should point out we are talking old fashioned analog ampmeter here, not digital. 

 

THIS is possibly a major problem too, I suggest. Laboratory standard analogue ammeters are fine but the type sold for cars are shockingly inaccurate. Can you post a photo of it perhaps?

 

2 hours ago, rowland al said:

Ampmeter in wrong place then?

 

Almost certainly, from the evidence posted so far.

 

2 hours ago, rowland al said:

It makes no sense to me. The starter battery must be near 100% all of the time so would need less charge. Surely a higher charge current would be shown for the more depleted domestic batteries. 

 

Nor to any of the rest of us, unless the ammeter is in the feed to the starter battery. And yes we would all expect a far higher charge current to show to the domestic batts, but it doesn't. Therefore the ammeter is not registering the domestic charge. It IS however registering something, which looks exactly how a starter battery charges.

 

 

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nicknorman Veteran II

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Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, Exturnaroundman said:

Dear moderators, could you consider adding a separate battery related sub forum to cwdf, it may save the on going repeated posts.

If they peeve you, why not simply avoid reading them? Why do you need someone to move them out of your immediate grasp? In the case of this thread at least, it’s not as if the subject matter is disguised.

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MtB Veteran II

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Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

If they peeve you, why not simply avoid reading them? Why do you need someone to move them out of your immediate grasp? In the case of this thread at least, it’s not as if the subject matter is disguised.

 

I thought it a helpful suggestion. A 'battery problems' forum would gather together all the battery wisdom (and stupidity) in one place for the CWFer with a charging problem to read everything written on the subject. We all know how flaky the search facility can be.

In addition, there must still be some Smartgauge-adulation/hero worship threads that would benefit from having my balanced and reasoned views adding ;)

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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rowland al Community Regular

rowland al

Posted
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Posted
1 hour ago, Exturnaroundman said:

Dear moderators, could you consider adding a separate battery related sub forum to cwdf, it may save the on going repeated posts.

I'm fascinated. Which bits would you say have been repeated? 

Maybe the questions, but where are the answers? 

I'n not seeing any answers here. 

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Tony Brooks Veteran II

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Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, rowland al said:

I'm fascinated. Which bits would you say have been repeated? 

Maybe the questions, but where are the answers? 

I'n not seeing any answers here. 

In that case I will stop trying to help you. OK, so I made one huge mistake but it was quickly corrected by the forum. I have tried to answer each question you posed in a manner that you stood a chance of understanding. I estimate I have now probably wasted a couple of hours on you and so have others.

You got told the ammeter was probably in the wrong place within the first few posts so you got the probable answer. The fact you seemingly did not like or understand it does not mean you did not get or see it.

This is a repeat of the Perkins 4-108 cold start topic and the fridge volt drop topic. The OP has done some degree of self diagnosis and is looking for confirmation rather than the truth.

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rowland al Community Regular

rowland al

Posted
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Posted
24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

In that case I will stop trying to help you. OK, so I made one huge mistake but it was quickly corrected by the forum. I have tried to answer each question you posed in a manner that you stood a chance of understanding. I estimate I have now probably wasted a couple of hours on you and so have others.

You got told the ammeter was probably in the wrong place within the first few posts so you got the probable answer. The fact you seemingly did not like or understand it does not mean you did not get or see it.

This is a repeat of the Perkins 4-108 cold start topic and the fridge volt drop topic. The OP has done some degree of self diagnosis and is looking for confirmation rather than the truth.

That frustrated response was to Exturnaroundman, not you, but of course you are correct and I have said I appreciate everyone's replies and still do. 

Sorry.

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Gareth E Proficient

Gareth E

Posted
Posted

I'm butting in a little here: I have a single Trojan 12v, 105ah, with low usage of around 25ah a day. I have a decent solar array and a wind turbine. Currently I run the genny for an hour each evening. At these times the battery volatge is around 12.5 to 12.6, with no loads on. Every third evening I run the genny for around 3 hours, this results in a tail current of around 1.5 amps.

Is my charging regime a good one or might I be better scrapping the daily charges, just run the genny when down to 12.2 for however long it takes to fully charge?

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MtB Veteran II

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Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

I'm butting in a little here: I have a single Trojan 12v, 105ah, with low usage of around 25ah a day. I have a decent solar array and a wind turbine. Currently I run the genny for an hour each evening. At these times the battery volatge is around 12.5 to 12.6, with no loads on. Every third evening I run the genny for around 3 hours, this results in a tail current of around 1.5 amps.

Is my charging regime a good one or might I be better scrapping the daily charges, just run the genny when down to 12.2 for however long it takes to fully charge?

 

Well Trojan say you must fully recharge immediately after each and every discharge.

Anything short of this (impossible) requirement is a compromise. The bigger your compromise, the shorter your battery life. Your charging regime sounds fine to me but the only way to discover the answer to your question is try it and see. And buy another new Trojan if it doesn't work out. Oh and tell the board here about it!

Do you have a method available to equalise/desulphate every month or two?

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Tony Brooks Veteran II

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Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

I'm butting in a little here: I have a single Trojan 12v, 105ah, with low usage of around 25ah a day. I have a decent solar array and a wind turbine. Currently I run the genny for an hour each evening. At these times the battery volatge is around 12.5 to 12.6, with no loads on. Every third evening I run the genny for around 3 hours, this results in a tail current of around 1.5 amps.

Is my charging regime a good one or might I be better scrapping the daily charges, just run the genny when down to 12.2 for however long it takes to fully charge?

Sound fine to me. It seems Trojans do not like sitting partially discharged as MtBM found out so the daily charge is important.

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MtB Veteran II

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Posted
Posted
Just now, Tony Brooks said:

Sound fine to me. It seems Trojans do not like sitting partially discharged as MtBM found out so the daily charge is important.

 

To be fair my Trojans are Trojan clones made by Yuasa, not the Real Thing. 

Same physical size, weight, capacity, almost the same price and sold to me as an equivalent to Trojan in every way. I suspect the truth is rather different though. One of the reasons I bought them was they said they sold 20 Yuasas for every Trojan they sold, and I was concerned to get fresh new batteries rather than batteries sitting on the shelf for ages. Big mistake I feel. I think Trojans would have been a better choice, with hindsight. 

In addition charging to 100% is also important, which I wasn't doing due partly to a faulty Smartgauge overstating the state of charge. The Yuasas were highly resistant to desulphation, once damaged. I suspect the same mistreatment of genuine Trojans might have been recoverable. 

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