Paperwork tips for buying a boat please

[PeterCr]

We are in the market for a second hand boat. I'm a little nervous about what sort of paperwork we should be looking for, both before we buy and once we've had an offer accepted. Establishing title to the boat for example, how do we do that?

Any and all suggestions gratefully received, many thanks.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, PeterCr said:

Any and all suggestions gratefully received, many thanks.

The available  paper work will very much depend  on what type of boat you are looking at, & what age it is (pre, or post,  RCD)

Canal boats are rarely registered - they have a ‘number plate’ but no ‘log-book’.

There is therefore no way to identify title, all you can do is look thru any paper work and see if it is all in the same name and goes back for some time (insurance, C&RT licence letters, bills & invoices etc), and does the name and address tie in with the sellers name and address ?

In an ideal world you would be given / shown :

The original bill of sale

All subsequent bills of sale

The VAT Paid certificate

All RCD manuals

CE Compliance certificate

[cuthound]

Whrn I bought my boat i didnt get the original bill of sale, but had correspondence between first owner and builder, RCD & CE documentation and all invoices for servicing, blacking and repairs.

The latter is really useful as it shows whether care has been lavished in The boat or not.

[Mike Todd]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The available  paper work will very much depend  on what type of boat you are looking at, & what age it is (pre, or post,  RCD)

Canal boats are rarely registered - they have a ‘number plate’ but no ‘log-book’.

There is therefore no way to identify title, all you can do is look thru any paper work and see if it is all in the same name and goes back for some time (insurance, C&RT licence letters, bills & invoices etc), and does the name and address tie in with the sellers name and address ?

In an ideal world you would be given / shown :

The original bill of sale

All subsequent bills of sale

The VAT Paid certificate

All RCD manuals

CE Compliance certificate

Even a succession of Bills of Sale does nothing to absolute to prove that the person you are talking to is the rightful owner. There may have been a break when the lineage went astray.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

32 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Even a succession of Bills of Sale does nothing to absolute to prove that the person you are talking to is the rightful owner. There may have been a break when the lineage went astray.

There cannot be a break in lineage, unless a BoS is missing - a bill of sale has the sellers name and address, and, the buyers name and address, therefore what was the buyer now becomes the seller & is noted on subsequent documents.

[mrsmelly]

In short especialy if its an old inland boat such as a narrowboat a wing and a prayer springs to mind. Some of the beauty to me of boat ownership is not having to comply with a paperwork trail such as with cars and houses. I bought my first boat at the side of the canal near thirty years ago for 10k in folding stuff, all legal and above board, job done. Since then my other boats have been a mix of no paperwork down to this one which actualy has a bill of sale and everything including the invoice for the shell and a thing called an RCD in place ( which means nowt ) by the way. Much as others have said is down to such as is it registered with such as CART and for how long etc.

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There cannot be a break in lineage, unless a BoS is missing - a bill of sale has the sellers name and address, and, the buyers name and address, therefore what was the buyer now becomes the seller & is noted on subsequent documents.

I only have experience of two - one in modern times and one in ancient history and in neither case was there a document as complete as that!

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I only have experience of two - one in modern times and one in ancient history and in neither case was there a document as complete as that!

A BoS - a derivative of which is used by most brokers.

Bill Of Sale MCA.pdf

[dmr]

Have lived on the boat for getting on for ten years, have mended and replaced lots of things, some twice or even three times. If i'd kept every bit of paper the boat would look like a paper mill. If the paint looks rough a bit of paper saying it was painted 3 years ago means nothing.

Don't have all the RCD stuff etc, hope we are not going to sink because of that.

Only important thing is knowing that the person selling the boat really owns it. Paper can be forged. Find out where it was last moored and for how long and have a chat with that marina etc etc.

.............Dave

[MtB]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

 

Only important thing is knowing that the person selling the boat really owns it. Paper can be forged. Find out where it was last moored and for how long and have a chat with that marina etc etc.

.............Dave

 

Agreed. Or failing that, get the address of the person selling it and do a Land Registry search on his address. This is what I did last time I bought a boat and he had owned that house since the dawn of time. Coupled with the sheer number of other boaters who knew him and greeted or waved when we went out for a  test cruise, I was happy he was a kosher seller despite the complete absence of any paperwork.

Seller was not the sort of man your might describe as 'keen on paperwork'. Quite a few boaters are like this.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[PeterCr]

Thanks all, it's not complicated at all is it? 

By the way I see Alan includes The VAT Paid certificate. Is it important to establish the VAT status of the boat? On some ads, eg appolloduck, I see tax status. What is the significance of this?

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, PeterCr said:

Thanks all, it's not complicated at all is it? 

By the way I see Alan includes The VAT Paid certificate. Is it important to establish the VAT status of the boat? On some ads, eg appolloduck, I see tax status. What is the significance of this?

 

On inland waterways boats it is only important if the Customs & Excise folk ask you for it - I have never known it be asked  for, but, if it is asked for and you  cannot provide it you will be charged VAT at 20% of what they decide the value is.

With the rise in illegal immigration & terrorism, it is a different matter if you have a ’sea -  going’ boat, it is becoming increasingly likely that you will be ’stopped and searched’ and required to provide ships-papers.

There are two 'Border Patrol' boats (huge grey things like warships) based in our marina, they are very active and out on patrol everyday.

[pete harrison]

15 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Agreed. Or failing that, get the address of the person selling it and do a Land Registry search on his address. This is what I did last time I bought a boat and he had owned that house since the dawn of time. Coupled with the sheer number of other boaters who knew him and greeted or waved when we went out for a  test cruise, I was happy he was a kosher seller despite the complete absence of any paperwork.

Seller was not the sort of man your might describe as 'keen on paperwork'. Quite a few boaters are like this.

A hand written receipt and photographs of the sellers driving licence is where I would go. The signature on the receipt can be compared to the signature on the driving licence, and the seller can always be tracked down through their unique driving licence number, and of course you also have their photograph on the driving licence which might prove to be useful if it all goes wrong. To my mind a receipt can be written on anything providing the details of the deal are captured, and most mobile phones have a camera - so in theory reasonable documentation can be gathered on viewing the boat. Any reluctance or hesitation from the seller then walk away, after all they should have nothing to hide. Obviously all documentation can be forged.

I am only interested in 'historic' boats, and through my research into these boats I know many of the owners. It also helps that I compile the historys for these boats so I would very likely already know who is the owner, and who they bought from e.t.c. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by pete harrison

[MtB]

A further point not made so far is that buying from a broker gives no better guarantee about the right to sell than buying privately, despite what many newbies like to assume.

Brokers have no more ability than you or I to carry out the common sense ownership checks discussed above in the thread, and I'm not convinced brokers in general have as much motivation as you or I to do the 'diligence'.

Like a survey report though, buying from a broker kids you into getting a warm fuzzy feeling that you are being protected from risk, when in reality you are still just relying on luck. 

[dmr]

In fact meeting the owners face to face a couple of times should tell you a lot about the boat and how genuine everything is, so even if buying from a broker meeting the owners would be good. Be extra careful if the seller knows very little about boats and is selling on behalf of a friend or family member.

...............Dave

[Horace42]

As most replies say - it is the history of traceable documentation from independent third parties that is evidence in the belief that the seller is the real owner - further supported by casual observers also believing this to be true....'provenance' is the word!  And not just boats, this applies to any physical object. 

I suppose you could check with CRT/police whether the boat has been reported as stolen.  At the worst, should you buy it, someone knock on the door one day and say they are the real owner - then the same 'rules' apply - they will have to produce evidence to your satisfaction. Or more importantly, not just to your satisfaction, but also evidence that will stand up in court, (edit) should they want to take action to enforce their ownership rights to evict you to regain their property .

But other than that, and subject to a few simple checks recommended above, you will be OK.

Good luck.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Horace42
extra relevant comment

[Arthur Marshall]

Bought mine thirty years ago on a handshake, no paperwork whatsoever. I've actually still got the receipt, but as we forgot to date it can't actually remember when it was.  As no-one's yet come to ask for the boat back, I think I'm OK.

[Drayke]

12 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

A further point not made so far is that buying from a broker gives no better guarantee about the right to sell than buying privately, despite what many newbies like to assume.

Brokers have no more ability than you or I to carry out the common sense ownership checks discussed above in the thread, and I'm not convinced brokers in general have as much motivation as you or I to do the 'diligence'.

Like a survey report though, buying from a broker kids you into getting a warm fuzzy feeling that you are being protected from risk, when in reality you are still just relying on luck. 

Brokers have to be able to show due diligence or they could land up being sued if it all goes wrong.

[PeterCr]

Thanks.

I assume also that if there is any finance owed on the boat that is another can of worms. How do you know?

And I'd assume that any finance company has the documentation all stitched up so the documents will provide that the boat is subject to finance owing, and they have the right to seize the boat if finance owing isn't paid. But if finance is owing the buyer would never be made aware of that documentation.

[MtB]

On 05/11/2017 at 23:12, F DRAYKE said:

Brokers have to be able to show due diligence or they could land up being sued if it all goes wrong.

 

My point exactly. A broker can do no more than you or I to establish the right to sell, and if they do their best and it isn't good enough, that will be a perfectly good defence against being sued. So the customer loses their money, not the broker.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, PeterCr said:

I assume also that if there is any finance owed on the boat that is another can of worms. How do you know

Unless the boat is registered on the Ships Register (Part 1) there is no way of either you (or a broker) checking. I doubt if more than a hand full of the 70,000+ canal/river boats are registered.

Inland waterway boatmen have always had bit of a reputation as non-conformists and dislike of 'authority', to a certain extent this carries on today and the whole industry is quite informal.

It seems to work and there are few reported cases of 'things going wrong' (doesn't help the ones for whom it goes wrong tho')

Over the years I have been boating (30+) I think the biggest problems have been with :

1) 'new builds' where the buyer has paid up front and the builder goes 'bust' taking all his customers payments with him.

2) 'Brokers', a couple of brokers have gone bust in the last few years which has resulted in a huge mess - buyers have paid a deposit and lose it, or buyers have paid in full, taken the boat but not yet paid the seller - the seller (boat owner) now has no boat & no money

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[WotEver]

12 hours ago, PeterCr said:

Thanks.

I assume also that if there is any finance owed on the boat that is another can of worms. How do you know?

And I'd assume that any finance company has the documentation all stitched up so the documents will provide that the boat is subject to finance owing, and they have the right to seize the boat if finance owing isn't paid. But if finance is owing the buyer would never be made aware of that documentation.

I don’t believe many folk buy a boat on HP. It’s more usual to take out a personal loan in which case the finance company/bank has no claim on the boat, only the lendee. 

[Mike Todd]

17 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I don’t believe many folk buy a boat on HP. It’s more usual to take out a personal loan in which case the finance company/bank has no claim on the boat, only the lendee. 

Marine mortgage?

[WotEver]

34 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Marine mortgage?

How many of those are about for narrowboats? In fact, how many folk offer them these days? Not many, judging by the last time the question was asked on here. 

[Mike Todd]

37 minutes ago, WotEver said:

How many of those are about for narrowboats? In fact, how many folk offer them these days? Not many, judging by the last time the question was asked on here. 

I nearly added that proviso but preferred to point to the particular possibility. I believe they were once more frequent and I guess that they could return, depending on how the financial marker views such things relative to other options.

There are also some lumpy water folk on here and the OP did not specify canal or narrowboat.