Importing a new build in in to Ireland

[canal_man]

Hi Guys, 

I am looking at UK builders (for cost and quality) for a widebeam to transport into Ireland. We don't have many canal boat builders here in Ireland so I looked further afield...

So will I pay tax on import or if the tax is paid in the UK are there no additional import costs?

In the meantime I have emailed revenue/customs to check to see what they have to say, but thought I would double check here if anyone has experience there.

Also does anyone know if UK 'zero-rated' boats could apply in my case?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Are you talking about NI or Eire?

For Eire you will need to ensure that you have official VAT paid documents, (and other 'boat papers' as required by the EU) as you are 'exporting' the boat.

[Phoenix_V]

\have a look at this site for one built in Ireland

http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk/MauriceA

[canal_man]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you talking about NI or Eire?

For Eire you will need to ensure that you have official VAT paid documents, (and other 'boat papers' as required by the EU) as you are 'exporting' the boat.

@Alan de Enfield I'm talking about importing a newly built UK boat into Eire not NI. So when buying new I should be supplied with documents stating 'VAT paid' or something to that effect? Is that standard when buying new?

Thanks for the link @Phoenix_V will check it out.

Edited November 1, 2017 by canal_man

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, canal_man said:

Hi Guys, 

I am looking at UK builders (for cost and quality) for a widebeam to transport into Ireland. We don't have many canal boat builders here in Ireland so I looked further afield...

So will I pay tax on import or if the tax is paid in the UK are there no additional import costs?

In the meantime I have emailed revenue/customs to check to see what they have to say, but thought I would double check here if anyone has experience there.

Also does anyone know if UK 'zero-rated' boats could apply in my case?

 

 

Neil of the Tuesday Night Club fame had a wide beam built in Ireland, I think its still over there http://www.tuesdaynightclub.co.uk/MauriceA/MauriceAIndex.html

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, canal_man said:

I'm talking about importing a newly built UK boat into Eire not NI. So when buying new I should be supplied with documents stating 'VAT paid' or something to that effect? Is that standard when buying new?

When buying a (proper) boat there are all sorts of 'ships documents' (registrations, VAT Certificates, Bill of Sale etc. etc.). The English Inland Waterways are not (shall we say) always in line with official requirements.

It may well be that your new build will come with the necessary documentation but it is IMPORTANT to check that you chosen supplier can comply with ALL of the EU legislation, you do not want to be left with a boat that you have paid for that cannot be imported into Europe.

I did it the other way around - importing a boat from Croatia to the UK & the Customs paperwork can be quite 'comprehensive'.

I suggest that you employ an Eire based boat importer to handle everything for you - he will know what hoops have to be jumped thru' and which can be 'bent'. It will  an additional cost, but will be more than offset by the potential losses if you get 'caught' doing something wrong. 

[Stilllearning]

40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

When buying a (proper) boat there are all sorts of 'ships documents' (registrations, VAT Certificates, Bill of Sale etc. etc.). The English Inland Waterways are not (shall we say) always in line with official requirements.

It may well be that your new build will come with the necessary documentation but it is IMPORTANT to check that you chosen supplier can comply with ALL of the EU legislation, you do not want to be left with a boat that you have paid for that cannot be imported into Europe.

I did it the other way around - importing a boat from Croatia to the UK & the Customs paperwork can be quite 'comprehensive'.

I suggest that you employ an Eire based boat importer to handle everything for you - he will know what hoops have to be jumped thru' and which can be 'bent'. It will  an additional cost, but will be more than offset by the potential losses if you get 'caught' doing something wrong. 

I am probably missing a point somewhere here Alan, but surely, apart from reaching various European standards, such as the RCD, there is no importing into Europe going on? At least for the moment, the U.K. is still in Europe, as is Eire.

[Dr Bob]

19 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

I am probably missing a point somewhere here Alan, but surely, apart from reaching various European standards, such as the RCD, there is no importing into Europe going on? At least for the moment, the U.K. is still in Europe, as is Eire.

No there most certainly is. The most important issue is the VAT and you need a certificate saying VAT is paid otherwise the Irish Government will give you a bill for their rate of VAT on the valure THEY put on the boat. As Alan says, there may be more paperwork that is important which a boat importer will know about.

Not all products can come and go in Eu without restrictions. Think about cars. IIRC, cars need registering in a new country after a certain length of time (9 months?) and getting a local registration - with all the attendent changes in paper work. 10 years ago the Spanish government were trying to class boats as vehicles and threatening to demand all UK flagged vessels staying permenantly in Spain would have to do the same as cars and re-register, meaning skippers had to take exams! Common sense prevailed but it is an example that boats need to registered in a country (and then that country gets interested in the VAT history).

[Stilllearning]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

No there most certainly is. The most important issue is the VAT and you need a certificate saying VAT is paid otherwise the Irish Government will give you a bill for their rate of VAT on the valure THEY put on the boat. As Alan says, there may be more paperwork that is important which a boat importer will know about.

Not all products can come and go in Eu without restrictions. Think about cars. IIRC, cars need registering in a new country after a certain length of time (9 months?) and getting a local registration - with all the attendent changes in paper work. 10 years ago the Spanish government were trying to class boats as vehicles and threatening to demand all UK flagged vessels staying permenantly in Spain would have to do the same as cars and re-register, meaning skippers had to take exams! Common sense prevailed but it is an example that boats need to registered in a country (and then that country gets interested in the VAT history).

Naively I thought that VAT paid in one member state was what mattered.

UK cars coming into France have to get a French mot, a certificate of compliance with construction standards, and pay the one-off car tax based on French horse power. Oh and change the headlights to dip the other way. This all gets you a carte grise/log book and seems less burdensome than one might expect.

[Alan de Enfield]

54 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

I am probably missing a point somewhere here Alan, but surely, apart from reaching various European standards, such as the RCD, there is no importing into Europe going on? At least for the moment, the U.K. is still in Europe, as is Eire.

VAT rates vary across Europe and you want to ensure that you have paid VAT in the 'best' country.

Your UK supplier 'could' make the invoice VAT exempt as it was going for 'export', this would save you 20% on the price, once it reaches Eire than it would become subject to Irish VAT at 23% - this 3% could be £6000 difference on a £200,000 boat.

If you can pay the VAT in Switzerland (15%) or even Luxembourg (8%) It makes a huge saving over (say) Croatia & Norway at 25%, or even Hungary at 27%.

All European countries, all paying VAT-

You need professional help to minimise your costs and problems.

I know it is not what you plan, but, I was planning on importing a boat from the USA and you pay VAT at the point of entry into the EU - it becomes very important that you choose your country of arrival very carefully, it can cost extra £1000s otherwise.

 

Leisure / Pleasure boats in Eire are covered  by the Merchant Shipping Act :

Pleasure craft

Under the Merchant Shipping Act 1992, as amended by the Merchant Shipping (Investigation of Marine Casualties) Act 2000, a pleasure craft is defined as any vessel in private ownership used wholly or mainly for sport and recreation purposes. It also covers private vessels that are hired out by third parties, provided that the vessel will be operated only by the hirers and will not require a crew to operate it.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/recreational_activities_in_ireland/sport_and_leisure/licensing_of_boats_and_watercraft_in_ireland.html

Is your planned English builder aware of this ?

I am not trying to be 'clever', I am just pointing out some of the potential (expensive) pitfalls.

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[canal_man]

Thanks for all the replies, from what I can gather from everyone, if the boat is moving within the EU the VAT needs to be paid only in one country. VAT rate varies per EU country but if it is paid in one it is observed as being paid in all. Does that sound right?

I think in this case I'll pay the VAT in the UK and ask them for supporting documents for the Irish tax man. It's what I had assumed but we all know what that does to a person.

On getting a boat built in Ireland it seems much less accessible than the UK builders market. There is Riversdale builders (Graham I think), which are supposed to be good quality but someone said they make you source your own steel?? 

http://www.riversdaleholidays.com/barges/#bargebuild

 

The search continues...

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, canal_man said:

if the boat is moving within the EU the VAT needs to be paid only in one country

Correct - BUT make sure you get a VAT paid certificate from your builder.

It is possible to get one issued retrospectively - I had to do this on the boat from Croatia - it required a reasonable contribution to their Custom 'coffee fund'.

The form is a 'T2L'

Attached is the Croatian version, the forms are the same throughout the EU, just the languages differ.

Also ensure that you get a 'Declaration of compliance' (with the manufactures 'official stamp and signature') which is required to be shown whenever a boat enters a 'new' country.

 

Lagoon 380 T2L.pdf

Lagoon 380 CE declaration certificate of compliance.pdf

[canal_man]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Correct - BUT make sure you get a VAT paid certificate from your builder.

It is possible to get one issued retrospectively - I had to do this on the boat from Croatia - it required a reasonable contribution to their Custom 'coffee fund'.

The form is a 'T2L'

Attached is the Croatian version, the forms are the same throughout the EU, just the languages differ.

Also ensure that you get a 'Declaration of compliance' (with the manufactures 'official stamp and signature') which is required to be shown whenever a boat enters a 'new' country.

 

Lagoon 380 T2L.pdf

Lagoon 380 CE declaration certificate of compliance.pdf

Thanks very much Alan, you have been a great help! Always good to hear from someone who has gone through the process.

As a side did you happen to be at the Naas rally just gone? Or I might have the wrong Alan!

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, canal_man said:

I might have the wrong Alan!

You have

[jddevel]

A little anecdote. A few years ago I was considering importing a yacht from Greece. There was a loop hole I was going to exploit namely for example I viewed a boat owned by a dentist who rented out his craft as a holiday craft and as such received a generous allowance against the purchase price from the Greek Government. Bought through his dentist business he was able to claim the VAT back but was able to provide an invoice acceptable by Brussels and the UK customs as VAT paid. I didn`t proceed with the purchase because being my first boat I didn`t fancy sailing it back to the UK although I could have used road transport but that would have eaten into the savings and anyway I found one to suit me in the UK. Wonder if the loop hole has been closed?

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

A little anecdote. A few years ago I was considering importing a yacht from Greece. There was a loop hole I was going to exploit namely for example I viewed a boat owned by a dentist who rented out his craft as a holiday craft and as such received a generous allowance against the purchase price from the Greek Government. Bought through his dentist business he was able to claim the VAT back but was able to provide an invoice acceptable by Brussels and the UK customs as VAT paid. I didn`t proceed with the purchase because being my first boat I didn`t fancy sailing it back to the UK although I could have used road transport but that would have eaten into the savings and anyway I found one to suit me in the UK. Wonder if the loop hole has been closed?

That reminds me of a boss of mine back in the late 60’s who merited a large headline in the FT “How the Labour Government Bought My Boat”. Because his ocean-going yacht could double as a sales base for his business (wall units that spun James Bond-style to become display cabinets for example) he received so many tax breaks and incentives that he effectively got the boat for nothing. Of course, he still had to pay for the full time crew...

Edited November 1, 2017 by WotEver

[Alan de Enfield]

19 hours ago, canal_man said:

Also does anyone know if UK 'zero-rated' boats could apply in my case?

I don’t know if the Irish C&E will have the same rules/exemptions as the UK C&E as the rating is allowed under ‘ancient’ UK maritime legislation.

The UK rules can be seen on the attached.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services

You should note that the 'weight' / Tonnage quoted is NOT the weight of the boat, but is a calculation based on the cargo carrying capacity of what would be the hold (based on the old measure of a TUN)

You may need to speak with the Irish C&E to see if they apply them.

[Dav and Pen]

I believe that only the UK allows zero vat on pleasure boats that comply with the rules. If your proposed boat complies then the builder will supply an invoice showing zero vat. In effect vat has been paid as per the rules. As both countries are still part of the EU you should be ok but no doubt the Irish customs can confirm.

when I took my 50ft NB to Ireland and stayed for 2 years nobody ever question us and I never heard of anybody else being stopped.

David

[canal_man]

Hi Guys,

Thanks a million for all the responses really helpful. I have a response from the Irish customs, they back up what you guys suggest and what I have gathered so far but throw another spanner in there too.

Here's the summary:

As you propose to purchase the boat in the UK there are no customs import duties applicable as the purchase is from another EU member state. However VAT would apply in Ireland on this purchase at 23%. If VAT is also levied in the UK you would have to apply to re-claim this from HMRC. They may require both proof of payment of VAT in Ireland and proof of export of the vessel to Ireland.

So my next step is to contact HMRC to find out their policies for exporting vessels and to make sure the builder can comply etc..

I think what might end up happening is getting the builder to supply ex-vat for export then pay the 23% VAT on the purchase when she's in Ireland OR getting the builder to supply zero-rated and then pay 23% VAT on the purchase in Ireland. Much the same to me but probably depends on what the builder/taxman prefers.

Edit: I think the related scheme is: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-sailaway-boat-scheme/vswb3000

Anyone see any issues with that?

Edited November 3, 2017 by canal_man

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, canal_man said:

Anyone see any issues with that?

My understanding is that is not correct - but I guess they are the folks you have to satisfy /deal with.

Bringing my boat back from Croatia (EU Member) to the UK (EU Member) all I had do was register the importation at the 1st port of entry. No requirement to 'make up the difference' in VAT, or pay UK VAT and reclaim the Coatian VAT

I would repeat my suggestion that you engage an experienced boat-importer. The last thing you want is to end up with a C&E investigation into your life.

I did suggest this earlier - discuss with your 'builder' to see if they can do an invoice excluding VAT and then pay the VAT on arrival.

[canal_man]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would repeat my suggestion that you engage an experienced boat-importer. The last thing you want is to end up with a C&E investigation into your life.

I think you're probably right here. It's most likely the route I will go down, would just like an understanding of the legalities which at the end of the day is my responsibility as the vessel owner.

[philjw]

The HMRC notice which you linked to (sailaway boats) at first glance seems to apply to boats taken out of the EU and Eire would not therefore qualify

The scheme can only be used by an eligible person - see VSWB2020- who intends to export the boat to a final destination outside the EC within thespecified time limits also described in VSWB2020.

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, canal_man said:

Anyone see any issues with that?

 

It is all down to size:

From the "Irish Revenue"

New Boats within the EU
1. New Vessels less than 7.5m in length
These vessels will normally be VAT paid at point of purchase and no liability will arise on their importation into Ireland.  If imported free of VAT than the VAT liability arises on their importation and a declaration must be made to the Revenue Commissioners
2. New Vessels over 7.5m in length
Such vessels must pay Irish VAT on their importation into Ireland.-

 

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

New Vessels over 7.5m in length
Such vessels must pay Irish VAT on their importation into Ireland.-

So pay the VAT over here and reclaim it upon export, or don’t pay it at all over here. I guess both amount to the same thing. 

We bought some goods in Israel and when going through the customs border into Egypt we presented the invoice, showed the goods, and they gave us back the purchase tax - much the same principle.