Grand Union Canal Traffic Records

[pete harrison]

Does anybody on this Forum have access to Grand Union Canal traffic records covering the period 1962 to 1971, or know where I can access them ?

I am aware that there are some in private collections but I can not recall who has them 

[alan_fincher]

Probably not included in what you are after, but I recall Neil Evans, (once "Hairy Neil" of this forum), had records for boats passing through Braunston for some of the latter years of carrying.

Somebody must also hold records from Cowley for some years, because I have a couple of photocopies that came with Flamingo.....  No scrub that, thinkin about it, if you want post 1962, I'm sure these are pre 1960, when it was still Letchworth.

Not GU, but ultimately heading there, Nick Hill holds records for boats loaded on the Ashby in (I think!) 1970, at least.

[pete harrison]

Those held by Neil Evans would have very possibly answered the questions I am trying to solve, but Neil is well and truly off the radar. I suspect these still exist but goodness knows where.

I must admit I had not thought of Nick Hill 

[alan_fincher]

37 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Those held by Neil Evans would have very possibly answered the questions I am trying to solve, but Neil is well and truly off the radar. I suspect these still exist but goodness knows where.

I must admit I had not thought of Nick Hill 

I imagine Neil still has them, though it is a while since we have seen him anywhere.

I was alerted to what Nick Hill has, because one of his hand-written pages ot reproduced in Narrow Boat magazine some time back.  From memory date / motor / butty / steerer / tonnage and final destination are recorded.

I seem to recall the evidence was that each pair by then wa some considerable number of weeks between each trip, but maybe that was only for our boat.

What are you trying to work out?

[pete harrison]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I imagine Neil still has them, though it is a while since we have seen him anywhere.

I was alerted to what Nick Hill has, because one of his hand-written pages ot reproduced in Narrow Boat magazine some time back.  From memory date / motor / butty / steerer / tonnage and final destination are recorded.

I seem to recall the evidence was that each pair by then wa some considerable number of weeks between each trip, but maybe that was only for our boat.

What are you trying to work out?

Willow Wren Canal Carrying Company bought 8 motors from 'British Waterways' in December 1961, and it is claimed that BUCKDEN and OTLEY subsequently completed a few trips and that GAINSBOROUGH was not returned to service. I am looking for evidence of this.

The recent sale of OTLEY has bought this back to the front of my mind, and Nick Hill might be able to provide some detail regarding OTLEY and BODMIN carrying to Croxley under the ownership of Doug and Jane Greaves in 1969/1970. It is rumoured that OTLEY and BODMIN completed three trips, one of which was captured in a photograph credited to Harry Arnold in Roger Alsop's book WORKING BOATS along with CHERTSEY and COMET (which featured my old butty BARNES - although a couple of years prior to us buying it) 

[mark99]

Peter,

Seen this? related.

http://www.croxleygreenhistory.co.uk/general-views.html

I found a couple more ref pictures of Croxley traffic - will try to unearth the link.

[pete harrison]

15 minutes ago, mark99 said:

Peter,

Seen this? related.

http://www.croxleygreenhistory.co.uk/general-views.html

I found a couple more ref pictures of Croxley traffic - will try to unearth the link.

Thank you. This website seems to be attracting quite a bit of interest at present as I have seen references to it several times in the last few weeks.

[mark99]

Banbury good image. Rest = no idea.

 

Click to get bigger.

 

http://www.croxleygreenhistory.co.uk/john-dickinson.html

 

Note the dump from railway growing in background image.

 

Unknown to me boat nr Cassio.

 

http://www.croxleygreenhistory.co.uk/the-halfway-house.html

Edited October 31, 2017 by mark99

[pete harrison]

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

Unknown to me boat nr Cassio.

http://www.croxleygreenhistory.co.uk/the-halfway-house.html

TOW is one of the 'River Class' buttys built for the south eastern division to replace the ageing large Ricky's. These boats are often referred to as 'blue tops' as their holds were covered by a series of blue fibreglass covers, each about 4 feet in length and speeded up the clothing up procedure considerably - although they were not without their shortcomings.

TOW went on to serve in the fleet of Birmingham and Midland Canal Carrying Company Ltd. before returning to British Waterways Board who converted it to a tanked mud hopper, and it remains as such today  

Edited October 31, 2017 by pete harrison

[mark99]

Wonder what the cargo is in the boat passing Butty Banbury?

Lime Juice? logs?

[Leo No2]

Pete

Had you thought of contacting Northampton Record Office (http://www3.northamptonshire.gov.uk/councilservices/archives-and-heritage/northamptonshire-archives/Pages/default.aspx) - Lorna York recently found gauging sheets for The Mary, The George, Corona, Sculptor (first one ever found) and Toucan (Sculptor's original butty). Sadly I don't think you'll find a comprehensive list anywhere but we were surprised when Lorna came up with a Sculptor one.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Leo No2

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, mark99 said:

Wonder what the cargo is in the boat passing Butty Banbury?

Lime Juice? logs?

If it is where it is claimed to be then the unsheeted pair are travelling towards Brentford, not away from it, so it can't be lime juice pulp.

[alan_fincher]

14 hours ago, pete harrison said:

Willow Wren Canal Carrying Company bought 8 motors from 'British Waterways' in December 1961, and it is claimed that BUCKDEN and OTLEY subsequently completed a few trips and that GAINSBOROUGH was not returned to service. I am looking for evidence of this.

I have not come across anything yet that shows movements from the early 1960s.

Late 60s into 1970, I suspect both Hairy Neil and (I know) Nick hill have something on, but I doubt any of it goes back to then.  Nick should br able to help with late traffics from Gopsall, I think.

The limited Cowley stuff I have seen was prior to Willow Wren buying those 8 motors, I feel sure, because it shows Letchworth not Flamingo.

Who did WW sell Buckden and Otley to, and when, please?  I'm not by my books, but I assume they were never renamed?

Sarah always said Chertsey only ever did one trip from Gopsall - though I accept that information may have come from you in the first place

Edited November 1, 2017 by alan_fincher

[pete harrison]

2 hours ago, Leo No2 said:

Pete

Had you thought of contacting Northampton Record Office (http://www3.northamptonshire.gov.uk/councilservices/archives-and-heritage/northamptonshire-archives/Pages/default.aspx) - Lorna York recently found gauging sheets for The Mary, The George, Corona, Sculptor (first one ever found) and Toucan (Sculptor's original butty). Sadly I don't think you'll find a comprehensive list anywhere but we were surprised when Lorna came up with a Sculptor one.

I think it is highly possible that most local Records Offices throughout the midlands have Documents relating to the inland waterways, but there is just not enough time in one life to extract all of this information - but no I had not thought of contacting Northampton Record Office.

As far as Grand Junction / Grand Union Gauge Registers (a book of 100 gauge sheets) are concerned these are fairly easy to find as every Toll Office had a full set, and there were numerous Toll Offices. As the Toll Offices closed some of these Gauge Registers were returned to 'Head Office', some were placed in local Records Offices and some were 'liberated' by enthusiasts before they ended up in a skip. Back in 2002 I transcribed all of the Grand Junction / Grand Union Gauge Registers back to G.J. 10500 (18 August 1882 - with the last issued being G.U. 12787 on 14 September 1938) - although the Register 12601 - 12700 was missing. Prior to G.J. 10500 there are numerous Registers missing, and the details on each gauge sheet get a little sketchy the further back you go (G.J. 1 was issued 05 July 1802). I have since been able to fill in some of the gaps but the vast majority of those that I transcribed were located at The Waterways Trust Archive, Gloucester so should now be housed in the archive at Ellesmere Port.

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I have not come across anything yet that shows movements from the early 1960s.

Late 60s into 1970, I suspect both Hairy Neil and (I know) Nick hill have something on, but I doubt any of it goes back to then.  Nick should br able to help with late traffics from Gopsall, I think.

Who did WW sell Buckden and Otley to, and when, please?  I'm not by my books, but I assume they were never renamed?

As Neil is so far off radar I will see about having a chat with Nick Hill.

My records indicate that BUCKDEN and GAINSBOROUGH were sold in 1965 and both subsequently converted to pleasure boats with full length conversions, with BUCKDEN renamed as PAULINE. I understand that OTLEY was sold in 1967 and was renovated as a carrying boat, and was amongst the last boats loading at Gopsall Wharf for Croxley in 1970.

All of the Willow Wren Carrying Company Company acquisitions that entered carrying service were health registered under their new names, but I can find no evidence that BUCKDEN, GAINSBOROUGH or OTLEY were renamed or health registered for this owner - the other 5 all being re-named after birds and health registered at Coventry during 1962. I do however have an enthusiast observation stating that OTLEY was on the dock at Braunston in April 1962, which suggests to me that it was either being prepared for service or about to be 'written off'.

What might be less well known is that Willow Wren Canal Carrying Company / Willow Wren Canal Transport Services Ltd. purchased quite a number of boats that were never intended for their carrying fleet but were sold on to third parties for conversion to pleasure boats of one sort or another 

Edited November 1, 2017 by pete harrison

[alan_fincher]

14 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

My records indicate that BUCKDEN and GAINSBOROUGH were sold in 1965 and both subsequently converted to pleasure boats with full length conversions, with BUCKDEN renamed as PAULINE. I understand that OTLEY was sold in 1967 and was renovated as a carrying boat, and was amongst the last boats loading at Gopsall Wharf for Croxley in 1970.

Interesting - so 3 of the 8 ex-GUCCCo motors purchased were owned by WW for around 4 to 6 years.

This presumably means they would have been dumped at Braunston for most of that time.  I would have rather expected to see some evidence of them as identifiable boats in the considerable number of pictures that exist of boats out of use there, (although I admit that in most such photos it is hard to actually spot names).  Yet I don't recall ever having seen any of them clearly identifiable in any picture I have seen.

I guess you are aware that the Alen Faulkener booklet "Willow Wren" suggests Otley entered WW service in 12/61, and that Buckden followed in 1/62.  Is tat where the claim you are investigating originates from? 

It's kind of odd these boats seem to have escaped the camera, whether seeing an active use, or just in storage.

[pete harrison]

20 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I guess you are aware that the Alen Faulkener booklet "Willow Wren" suggests Otley entered WW service in 12/61, and that Buckden followed in 1/62.  Is tat where the claim you are investigating originates from? 

Page 8 of Alan Faulkner's booklet Willow Wren states "During 1962 five were renovated, renamed and brought into service, but two - Buckden and Otley - ran only a few trips whilst the eighth - Gainsborough - was never used......."

I have not spoken with Alan Faulkner for a while but this could be a reason to 

[mark99]

7 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If it is where it is claimed to be then the unsheeted pair are travelling towards Brentford, not away from it, so it can't be lime juice pulp.

Unsheeted are going North. They are just about to enter Common Moor Lock and go up.

Edited November 1, 2017 by mark99

[pete harrison]

3 hours ago, pete harrison said:

Page 8 of Alan Faulkner's booklet Willow Wren states "During 1962 five were renovated, renamed and brought into service, but two - Buckden and Otley - ran only a few trips whilst the eighth - Gainsborough - was never used......."

I have not spoken with Alan Faulkner for a while but this could be a reason to 

I have just spoken with Alan Faulkner who is going to look through his notes to see where these details came from 

[magnetman]

Re mark99

 

Thats correct. The overspill weir which dumps excess water into the river Gade is visible to the left of the photo.

Its interesting that there is a weir there as I don't think (not been for a while!) that there is a bywash around common moor lock.

 

Maybe there once was or was the overspill weir simply to take account of water drained into the canal from the housing around Croxley? I think in more recent times there have been windows in the paddles to maintain the pound level between Common Moor/Lot mead like at Stockers / Springwell but I'm not certain about that.

Edited November 1, 2017 by magnetman

[mark99]

There is no bywash around Common Moor lock. And the Gade and GU Canal are cojoined above Common Moor. (I guess/suspect there is a weir off the Gade creating a rough level control above Common Moor). Also Dickensons Factory used to have a culvert or mill race under a big building which used the Gade (which is joined to the canal as said) to drive a power offtake.

Common Moor lock was always overspilling over lower gates when pound is high.

 

In summer of '76 I recall BW installing a large water pump behind Dickensons Factory into the Gade and pumping water back up into the canal pound - emergency back pump due to drought.

Edited November 1, 2017 by mark99

[magnetman]

I've been thinking about it and I'm sure there were windows in one or both bottom gate paddles at common moor to keep the pound between there and Lot Mead level. Its been about ten years since I was regularly there but if you stand below the lock with the lock full I think you'll see water disturbance indicating a paddle window (4 inch square hole in the paddle)
Not sure if its allowed any more and the lock may have been updated but it was a standard technique for keeping dead pounds level "back in the day".

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by magnetman

[mark99]

I reckon it's not bywashed as the Mill probably wanted as much (head) of water above Common Moor to spill down their culvert to turn their power offtake. Dickenson and other Mills were fiercely protective re water levels for Mill races.

If you knew the old Mill site the culvert ran right at the back of the overhanging storage sheds.

The pound between Lot Mead and Common Moor does indeed drop overnight quite a lot if there is no spare water coming down the valley and overtopping the bottom Common Moor Lock gates.

One of our family connections told us two kids drowned in either Lock 80 or 79 and he found the bodies. I was only about 11 or 12 at the time and never forgot that - whether true or not don't know. Possibly story to "scare us" not to mess about.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by mark99

[magnetman]

I used to moor above Lot Mead very regularly in the early 00s its a nice mooring. The level was occasionally a problem but not too serious. John at Stockers lock told me that when paddles were being renewed they were no longer cutting windows in them because the paddles are now made of composite plastic rather than wood so pounds like that could become problematic. In some places I think arrangements have been made to prevent bottom gate paddles closing all the way which has a similar effect.

 

 

[magnetman]

Of course considerations like this would have been less important when canals were populated by boatmen and lock keepers who knew what they were doing and got on with their job which included making sure there was always enough water about to ensure the smooth flow of traffic along the waterways.
Times change.