Red Diesel Rules Rumble On

[artleknock]

On 26/10/2017 at 11:47, Jerra said:

A bit of an assumption there, that we will be trading with the EU on world trade regs.  The EU regs to which we will have to conform for our exports will still have been made by the same people even under World Trade regs.   So no change there we will be "subservient" and have no input.

What a cracking idea.

What planet do you live on. How is it being subserviant producing goods to EU regs. And don't say they will not trade with us, they sell us more than we buy from them, 800,000 cars from Germany for a start.

Using your beliefs my Plumber, that fitted a new bathroom, is subserviant to me because he had to fit it out to my specifications.

[Jerra]

Just now, artleknock said:

What planet do you live on. How is it being subserviant producing goods to EU regs. And don't say they will not trade with us, they sell us more than we buy from them, 800,000 cars from Germany for a start.

Using your beliefs my Plumber, that fitted a new bathroom, is subserviant to me because he had to fit it out to my specifications.

Read the thread!  I didn't say it was being subservient a pro brexit poster said following EU regs as we had to do when we were in the EU was being subserevient.  If that is the case having to follow those regs after we leave the EU is still being subservient.

Brexiteers can't have it both ways if it subservience before leaving it is subservience after.

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, Steilsteven said:

As nice as it has been to run a boat on red diesel ( especially with PETRA at 5 liters an hour ) I wonder how that came to be. I read on another forum that it might have been that way since the 1930s or a ''thank you from the government'' for the Dunkirk little ships. Neither of these theories bear scrutiny as most private leisure boats had petrol engines and petrol isn't duty free as we all know. So how did it come to be?

My guess is custom and practice.

In the early leisure days gas oil was readily available canalside butpetrol wasn't. Early leisure boats were petrol powered (usually converted life boats or home built plywood boats), even Tom Rolt's converted narrow boat Cressy was petrol powered  (Model T Ford engune IIRC).

Eventually someone though "sod this carrying cans about, I'll put a diesel engine in", and with the demise of cargo carrying more narrowboats complete with diesel engines became available for conversion to leisure use.

Then the trend just carried on. Painful as it is to pay more duty, I think k we have been lucky to use red diesel for a long time.

[furnessvale]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

My guess is custom and practice.

In the early leisure days gas oil was readily available canalside butpetrol wasn't. Early leisure boats were petrol powered (usually converted life boats or home built plywood boats), even Tom Rolt's converted narrow boat Cressy was petrol powered  (Model T Ford engune IIRC).

Eventually someone though "sod this carrying cans about, I'll put a diesel engine in", and with the demise of cargo carrying more narrowboats complete with diesel engines became available for conversion to leisure use.

Then the trend just carried on. Painful as it is to pay more duty, I think k we have been lucky to use red diesel for a long time.

It is exactly the other way round.

EVERY leisure user of diesel fuel for propulsion not on a road (with no chance of the unit being easily used on a road) uses red diesel and always has done.

A few years ago boats were singled out for special "treatment" and were forced to pay duty, or use white, for propulsion.  No one else was so treated.

The next time you see an ex army tank doing wheelies round a field belching out black smoke, just remember for some reason, he can use red.

George

[Steilsteven]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

It is exactly the other way round.

EVERY leisure user of diesel fuel for propulsion not on a road (with no chance of the unit being easily used on a road) uses red diesel and always has done.

A few years ago boats were singled out for special "treatment" and were forced to pay duty, or use white, for propulsion.  No one else was so treated.

The next time you see an ex army tank doing wheelies round a field belching out black smoke, just remember for some reason, he can use red.

George

Yes that is the law but it doesn't explain why there isn't such a fuel as PERV. Maybe they thought it would be too embarrassing to have that on petrol pumps!

Keith 

Your reference to tanks got me thinking about diesel vs petrol power, if it's a ww2 tank it will be petrol fueled.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Steilsteven

[peterboat]

On 10/26/2017 at 20:22, Jerra said:

It wasn't me who said having to abide by/be controlled by EU rules and regs was subservience.   How are we going to trade with the EU unless our goods conform to their regs?  Answer we can't even Brexiteers admit this.  So we will by Brexiteers standards (after all it was a Brexiteer who described it as subservience) we will still be subservient to the EU.

You can't have it both ways either we are getting out from EU subservience that is being controlled by EU and therefor unable to trade with the EU.  The alternative is we are producing/doing things to EU regulations and standards so we can trade with them, in  which case by the definitions given above by a pro brexit poster we are subservient.

I realise "utter nonsense" is what is used when there is no argument against the facts.

But our trade drops month on month with the EU already is in the 40%s how long before its in the 30s?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

9 hours ago, peterboat said:

But our trade drops month on month with the EU already is in the 40%s how long before its in the 30s?

Looking at the figures from ONS I imagine I'll be long dead before it drop into the 30% realm since it hasn't really changed that much in the last decade.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/l7d7

but then the ONS, what do they know? they just deal with facts and data rather than gut instinct

 

[peterboat]

13 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Looking at the figures from ONS I imagine I'll be long dead before it drop into the 30% realm since it hasn't really changed that much in the last decade.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/l7d7

but then the ONS, what do they know? they just deal with facts and data rather than gut instinct

 

Great, however our exports with the EU are dropping and are under half. Would you believe that an export to the ROW that goes through Rotterdam is classed as going to the EU, strange how the EU fudges things to make it look as if the EU is the centre of the world when in reality its a small cog

[Jerra]

23 hours ago, peterboat said:

But our trade drops month on month with the EU already is in the 40%s how long before its in the 30s?

I haven't been able to find any figures which show this.  Can you please give me the reference to where you are getting them from?

[Wanderer Vagabond]

5 hours ago, peterboat said:

Great, however our exports with the EU are dropping and are under half. Would you believe that an export to the ROW that goes through Rotterdam is classed as going to the EU, strange how the EU fudges things to make it look as if the EU is the centre of the world when in reality its a small cog

Since our principal exports are services, the fact that some manufactured goods are classed as going through Rotterdam is largely academic. As I keep repeating, our manufacturing industry is a small percentage of our GDP (now less than 10%), almost a hobby really.  Is this the manufacturing you forlornly hope is going to become some driving force in the world and bring us untold wealth?

[magpie patrick]

Going back to the original logic of it all - AIUI in the early days of motorisation road vehicles tended to be petrol, termed  "Motor Spirit" as it wasn't used for much else, this was imported and taxed, diesel engines were best as stationary engines (and in Lutine's case would probably still be best in this role!) thus diesel and other fuels were not taxed. This loophole came to be exploited when smaller lighter diesel engines came about and ended up fitted in vehicles. To tax diesel the way that petrol was taxed would have caused (a) uproar and (b) serious hardship, so DERV came about as a gas oil that had tax paid on it, with "non DERV" carrying a red dye to indicate no tax had been paid. Even though non-road would have been the major and established use it's fairly obvious why it was the non-taxed version that had to be dyed.

And for the best part of a century that's where it rested - white for road use, red for everything else. Tax on all petrol because it started life as "motor spirit" tax. 

 

[David Mack]

On 28/10/2017 at 11:23, furnessvale said:

 

A few years ago boats were singled out for special "treatment" and were forced to pay duty, or use white, for propulsion.  No one else was so treated.

Weren't leisure aircraft also affected in the same way at the same time as leisure boats?

[Steilsteven]

15 hours ago, David Mack said:

Weren't leisure aircraft also affected in the same way at the same time as leisure boats?

Leisure aircraft pay the same duty as road vehicles.

Keith

Fuel Duty - GOV.UK.html

18 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

Going back to the original logic of it all - AIUI in the early days of motorisation road vehicles tended to be petrol, termed  "Motor Spirit" as it wasn't used for much else, this was imported and taxed, diesel engines were best as stationary engines (and in Lutine's case would probably still be best in this role!) thus diesel and other fuels were not taxed. This loophole came to be exploited when smaller lighter diesel engines came about and ended up fitted in vehicles. To tax diesel the way that petrol was taxed would have caused (a) uproar and (b) serious hardship, so DERV came about as a gas oil that had tax paid on it, with "non DERV" carrying a red dye to indicate no tax had been paid. Even though non-road would have been the major and established use it's fairly obvious why it was the non-taxed version that had to be dyed.

And for the best part of a century that's where it rested - white for road use, red for everything else. Tax on all petrol because it started life as "motor spirit" tax. 

 

That makes sense thanks.

Keith 

[Markinaboat]

Just looked up fuel prices in Europe. The following figures were published on 14/09/17 and are the average prices, not motorway or supermarket prices and are in GBP.

Diesel                        Unleaded

Belgium 0.96              0.99
Germany 0.99             1.18
Luxembourg 0.83        0.99
 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Markinaboat
ommission

[Steilsteven]

18 hours ago, Markinaboat said:

Just looked up fuel prices in Europe. The following figures were published on 14/09/17 and are the average prices, not motorway or supermarket prices and are in GBP.

Diesel                        Unleaded

Belgium 0.96              0.99
Germany 0.99             1.18
Luxembourg 0.83        0.99
 

Average price for diesel in The Netherlands July - October was £1.07 per litre and no boat licence to pay!

Keith

[KevMc]

On ‎26‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:10, furnessvale said:

Before you say it, if we wish to export to the EU, exported goods will have to comply to EU requirements, just as goods we send to any other country in the world have to meet that country's requirements.  We will no more be subservient to the EU than to any other country to which we export.

George

Just as anyone who wants to sell things to us has to comply with our standards ... right hand drive vehicles , 3-square pin plugs to mention just two

[magpie patrick]

12 minutes ago, KevMc said:

Just as anyone who wants to sell things to us has to comply with our standards ... right hand drive vehicles , 3-square pin plugs to mention just two

 

Actually, Right Hand Drive isn't a standard, it's just that LHD is less desirable here

As we got into antecedents, apparently Henry Ford was the first to adopt LHD as standard on the model T, most cars before then put the driver by the verge (this was in America remember) but Ford felt it would be better to put the passenger by the kerb. Once he did this all tghe other advantages became apparent

And I noticed US mail vans are RHD to put the driver by the kerb for collection and delivery.

Sorry that's a bit  that's what happens when us history geeks get involved

[KevMc]

9 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Actually, Right Hand Drive isn't a standard, it's just that LHD is less desirable here

As we got into antecedents, apparently Henry Ford was the first to adopt LHD as standard on the model T, most cars before then put the driver by the verge (this was in America remember) but Ford felt it would be better to put the passenger by the kerb. Once he did this all tghe other advantages became apparent

And I noticed US mail vans are RHD to put the driver by the kerb for collection and delivery.

Sorry that's a bit  that's what happens when us history geeks get involved

I'm just back from Greece and for the first time sat in a front passenger seat while being driven on the "wrong" side of the road ... that was scary at times, especially given the random nature of the road edge there... it varied from having a decent footpath to a 6-9 inch drop with plenty of pot holes everywhere

[Steilsteven]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

 

Actually, Right Hand Drive isn't a standard, it's just that LHD is less desirable here

As we got into antecedents, apparently Henry Ford was the first to adopt LHD as standard on the model T, most cars before then put the driver by the verge (this was in America remember) but Ford felt it would be better to put the passenger by the kerb. Once he did this all tghe other advantages became apparent

And I noticed US mail vans are RHD to put the driver by the kerb for collection and delivery.

Sorry that's a bit  that's what happens when us history geeks get involved

Thanks Patrick I didn't know that. It made me look up this

Why Some Countries Drive on the Right and Some Countries Drive on the Left.html

[peterboat]

3 hours ago, KevMc said:

I'm just back from Greece and for the first time sat in a front passenger seat while being driven on the "wrong" side of the road ... that was scary at times, especially given the random nature of the road edge there... it varied from having a decent footpath to a 6-9 inch drop with plenty of pot holes everywhere

I have just come back from Corfu where petrol was euro up to 1.70 a litre diesel was 1.36-40 a litre and yes the roads were in horrendous condition. As I drive a left hand drive yank I am used to that in the middle of the road feeling

[Wanderer Vagabond]

3 hours ago, KevMc said:

I'm just back from Greece and for the first time sat in a front passenger seat while being driven on the "wrong" side of the road ... that was scary at times, especially given the random nature of the road edge there... it varied from having a decent footpath to a 6-9 inch drop with plenty of pot holes everywhere

Bit like UK roads now then. Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between sitting as a passenger against the kerb in a LHD car, and sitting as a passenger against the kerb in a RHD car? Just asking

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Bit like UK roads now then. Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between sitting as a passenger against the kerb in a LHD car, and sitting as a passenger against the kerb in a RHD car? Just asking

Tother half driving back from the pub

[1st ade]

5 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

And I noticed US mail vans are RHD to put the driver by the kerb for collection and delivery.

Some UK delivery vans (and road sweeping vehicles)  are LHD for the same reason.

[KevMc]

17 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Bit like UK roads now then. Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between sitting as a passenger against the kerb in a LHD car, and sitting as a passenger against the kerb in a RHD car? Just asking

It's the position you are used to being in when you are driving

[Wanderer Vagabond]

7 hours ago, KevMc said:

It's the position you are used to being in when you are driving

Wot, against the kerb?

Edited November 1, 2017 by Wanderer Vagabond