Electroquest 30 Amp Charger difficulties - Maximum Battery Bank Size?

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Going round in circles here. This is one of the things on my list the SG display leads you to believe it can do, but doesn't.

Even the abbreviated specs available all over the web show that it's 'within 10%' when charging, you don't need to go digging in the manual to find that out. So don't 'assume'.

Besides, 'within 10%' is just the product covering itself, it's generally a lot closer than that and self-corrects with subsequent cycles. Many users on here reckon it's within a couple of percent as they approach 99.9% charged.

Unlike an Ah counter of course, which gets worse and worse with every cycle if you don't reset it each charge.

[nicknorman]

41 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

So when the SG says 100% SoC and the real SoC is 90%.... this is deeply misleading as charging one's batteries to 90% instead of 100% leads to DISASTER... as any fule kno.

But firstly, that is maximum error, not the average error. Secondly, within 10% is much better than no information. Thirdly, 100% of what? As I said more times even than you have slagged off your Smartgauge, there is no empirical or even accepted definition of 100% SoC.

[MtB]

On 01/11/2017 at 10:58, nicknorman said:

there is no empirical or even accepted definition of 100% SoC.

 

Tail current stable for 45 minutes is usually quoted on here when anyone asks. Is that not good enough?

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Tail current stable for 45 minutes is usually quoted on here when anyone asks. Is that not good enough?

The tail current never becomes stable, a stable tail current is only asymptoticly approached. So it boils down to the resolution of the current measurement and or how many decimal places you can be bothered to look at. Equally, some people are of the opinion that when you weigh up the cost of repeated long engine or generator runs, it is cheaper to charge a bit less and replace the batteries a little more often.

[WotEver]

45 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

some people are of the opinion that when you weigh up the cost of repeated long engine or generator runs, it is cheaper to charge a bit less and replace the batteries a little more often.

Just like the 50% thing.  45%, 50%, 55%, who cares? A bit deeper might give you a week or two less life, and a bit shallower the opposite.  Does it really matter?

[nb Innisfree]

ACHTUNG! ACHTUNG! 49% SoC!  ISOLATE ALL ELECTRICAL LOADS! 

 

 

 

 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Tail current stable for 45 minutes is usually quoted on here when anyone asks. Is that not good enough?

In the good old days when BT used flooded LA batteries, fully charged was deemed to be when three consecutive readings, each taken 30 minutes apart were the same to two decimal places.

However as Nick says it will never completely stabilise unless left on float where, I assume, it will finally level out when tail current matches internal self discharge.

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Tail current stable for 45 minutes is usually quoted on here when anyone asks.

No it isn't!

What did I say in post #30, then post #35?

Now you can take it or leave it, if you leave it why should it be my problem?  

(If you want to show you're serious and not just point scoring, take some hourly tail current readings and post them up...)

Edited November 1, 2017 by smileypete

[Richard10002]

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They are not useless, they tell me when to start charging my batteries as noted in my list above. 

They ARE partly the reason for my brand new expensive battery bank sulphating up though, as they came incorrectly calibrated, meaning I stopped charging too soon, believing the SoC was higher than it actually was.

The way to tell when to stop charging, as the forum now so often says, is to wait for the tail current to stabilise. The SmartGauge does not tell you this. Unless you can explain otherwise. 

I post about my experiences with the SmartGauge periodically just for balance. I was totally taken in by the groupthink on here about how the SmartGauge is the answer to all battery monitoring problems. My experience shows this is not necessarily true. 

Start charging when the SG indicates you're down to 50%, stop charging when it says 100%, is the tempting implication of that nice big red LED display. After all, its a fuel gauge for batteries isn't it? But this is plain wrong if you read the manual properly, you simply cannot do that and expect your batteries to survive.

I agree with Mike. The Smartgauge has some value but, on its own, is likely to lead to undercharging and sulphate batteries.

[nicknorman]

40 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I agree with Mike. The Smartgauge has some value but, on its own, is likely to lead to undercharging and sulphate batteries.

Are you saying that it is likely to lead to undercharging and sulphate batteries more than if no monitoring equipment was installed? Hopefully not.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Are you saying that it is likely to lead to undercharging and sulphate batteries more than if no monitoring equipment was installed? Hopefully not.

 

I suspect Richard, like me, has figured out that an ammeter is far more useful than a Smartgauge for knowing when to stop charging.

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I suspect Richard, like me, has figured out that an ammeter is far more useful than a Smartgauge for knowing when to stop charging.

You mean, like it says in the manual? Yes, I agree. 

[nicknorman]

28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I suspect Richard, like me, has figured out that an ammeter is far more useful than a Smartgauge for knowing when to stop charging.

True, however an ammeter is much harder to install, beyond the capabilities of a non-technical boater. A Smartgauge is much, much easier to install. So I come back to the SG being much better than nothing.

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Are you saying that it is likely to lead to undercharging and sulphate batteries more than if no monitoring equipment was installed? Hopefully not.

Quite possibly, or at least as much chance.

With a Smartgauge unless you have read the manual from cover to cover, and understood it, in particular page 30, there is a strong possibility that the naive, non technical boater will start charging when the gauge reads 50%, or some other perceived "sensible SoC to start charging", and stop charging when the gauge reads 100%.

The above policy is highly likely to result in sulphate batteries in fairly short order - the manual actually intimates this, on page 30.

It is all very well the experienced here telling Mike that Smartgauge is fine, provided he doesn't rely on it for certain things, some of which sounds serious and some in humour. However, when someone comes to boating and batteries from a position of ignorance, both Mike and I want them to read that Smartgauge should not be relied upon like a fuel gauge.

Your analogy with a car fuel gauge, whilst accurate, (I.e. When it reads "Full", it may not be 100% Full), is not helpful to those that I am talking about. If a car fuel tank is repeatedly filled to 90% full, because that is the point at which the gauge reads "Full", and refilled at some arbitrary point where the gauge reads 50% or 30%, or whatever, the capacity of the fuel tank is not affected. If the same is done with a battery bank it almost certainly destroys the batteries much quicker than is necessary, and much quicker than would be the case if the naive boater was aware of the shortcomings of their new "fuel gauge".

They can gain this knowledge by reading and understanding page 30 of the manual, or hearing it here, or both.

 

[rusty69]

3 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

With a Smartgauge unless you have read the manual from cover to cover, and understood it, in particular page 30, there is a strong possibility that the naive, non technical boater will start charging when the gauge reads 50%, or some other perceived "sensible SoC to start charging", and stop charging when the gauge reads 100%.

The above policy is highly likely to result in sulphate batteries in fairly short order - the manual actually intimates this, on page 30.

Why wouldn't they read the manual, particularly on an important subject such as batteries. 

I agree with Mike that it is helpful to point out that some Smartgauges may not be properly calibrated and hence misleading. In such cases they should be considered faulty and returned, as you would any other faulty goods. 

 

[MtB]

27 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Why wouldn't they read the manual, particularly on an important subject such as batteries. 

I agree with Mike that it is helpful to point out that some Smartgauges may not be properly calibrated and hence misleading. In such cases they should be considered faulty and returned, as you would any other faulty goods. 

 

 

And how would the new boater buying a Smartgauge know his new device is out of calibration?

And why might the need to check its calibration even occur had he not read it here? It didn't occur to me, until I my expensive new battery bank unexpectedly and rapidly sulphated.

[rusty69]

24 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And how would the new boater buying a Smartgauge know his new device is out of calibration?

And why might the need to check its calibration even occur had he not read it here? It didn't occur to me, until I my expensive new battery bank unexpectedly and rapidly sulphated.

Which is why i agree that it is helpful you are pointing this bit out! 

I hope you are promoting the site, so people know where to come looking for your useful help. 

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Which is why i agree that it is helpful you are pointing this bit out! 

 

You're too kind. You never said this before!

All I usually get is NN and Wot saying what do I expect, it must be me or my shit batteries as the Smargauge is perfect.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You're too kind. You never said this before!

All I usually get is NN and Wot saying what do I expect, it must be me or my shit batteries as the Smargauge is perfect.

It is you and your shit batteries. And a Smartgauge incorrectly calibrated at the factory.

6 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Quite possibly, or at least as much chance.

With a Smartgauge unless you have read the manual from cover to cover, and understood it, in particular page 30, there is a strong possibility that the naive, non technical boater will start charging when the gauge reads 50%, or some other perceived "sensible SoC to start charging", and stop charging when the gauge reads 100%.

The above policy is highly likely to result in sulphate batteries in fairly short order - the manual actually intimates this, on page 30.

It is all very well the experienced here telling Mike that Smartgauge is fine, provided he doesn't rely on it for certain things, some of which sounds serious and some in humour. However, when someone comes to boating and batteries from a position of ignorance, both Mike and I want them to read that Smartgauge should not be relied upon like a fuel gauge.

Your analogy with a car fuel gauge, whilst accurate, (I.e. When it reads "Full", it may not be 100% Full), is not helpful to those that I am talking about. If a car fuel tank is repeatedly filled to 90% full, because that is the point at which the gauge reads "Full", and refilled at some arbitrary point where the gauge reads 50% or 30%, or whatever, the capacity of the fuel tank is not affected. If the same is done with a battery bank it almost certainly destroys the batteries much quicker than is necessary, and much quicker than would be the case if the naive boater was aware of the shortcomings of their new "fuel gauge".

They can gain this knowledge by reading and understanding page 30 of the manual, or hearing it here, or both.

 

You are failing to address my point that it’s much better than nothing. Presumably because you know it’s a good point!

[Old Son]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You're too kind. You never said this before!

All I usually get is NN and Wot saying what do I expect, it must be me or my shit batteries as the Smargauge is perfect.

But you do have your little rants so sometimes it is difficult to take you seriously. The last major rant was your Boatman Stove. If you compared it with a stove of similar size then fair enough but because YOU could not get it to stay in all night the stove was rubbish. Others on here have them and can keep the stove alight all night so don't really understand where you are coming from. There are lots of people with SG's and not very many have had the issues you have had! Maybe you are just unlucky?

[nicknorman]

Oh and the other thing being presumed is that all boaters are static and run their engines only to charge their batteries. When I had only the SG (no ammeter) it didn’t matter that it wasn’t accurately showing when the batteries were fully charged, because we always cruised for long enough. What it did usefully show was how much energy was left and, over time, how the batteries were rapidly losing capacity (in the dark days before Trojans).

[bizzard]

The Trojans of Troy didn't have Smart gauges to tell em the Greeks were coming.

Edited November 2, 2017 by bizzard

[WotEver]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

All I usually get is NN and Wot saying what do I expect, it must be me or my shit batteries as the Smargauge is perfect.

It’s you, your shit batteries, your poor care of those batteries, your inability to read a manual and... two faulty SmartGauges

Other than that, all is well with the world. 

Wot you gonna rant about today, Mike?

[system 4-50]

12 minutes ago, bizzard said:

The Trojans of Troy didn't have Smart gauges to tell em the Greeks were coming.

but they were only fighting one horsepower, you'd have thought they could cope without.

[smileypete]

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

True, however an ammeter is much harder to install, beyond the capabilities of a non-technical boater. A Smartgauge is much, much easier to install. So I come back to the SG being much better than nothing.

I'd expect it would get installed the same way as the ££££ 3000W combi and the 500Ah battery bank does for the non technical boater.

And for those on a budget there's plenty of options, eg for a 20A charger running off a small inverter genny, cheap as chips:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-DC-0-20A-Analog-Ammeter-Panel-AMP-Current-Meter-85C1-Gauge-Shunt/171634960674

Edited November 2, 2017 by smileypete