New batteries - problem

[MtB]

Batteries need charging for at least 26 hours every day or they will sulphate immediately in my experience, as any fule kno.

[MtB]

But more seriously, have you checked the calibration of your SmartGauge? I have two which were MILES out straight from the factory.

[BruceinSanity]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

But more seriously, have you checked the calibration of your SmartGauge? I have two which were MILES out straight from the factory.

My SG is correctly calibrated as far as I can see (voltage agrees with NASA all the time) but it shows 100% on a tail current of maybe 8 amps on charge into a 450 Ah bank. If the OP has been relying on the SG to tell him when to stop charging, his batteries may never have reached a true 100%.

I bought Albions from MC 18 months ago, charge them to 100% most days, topping off with solar in the summer, and have yet to see much loss of capacity.

[WotEver]

And so the merry go round continues to rotate 

[MtB]

On 24/10/2017 at 07:41, BruceinSanity said:

My SG is correctly calibrated as far as I can see (voltage agrees with NASA all the time)

 

In which case it is probably calibrated correctly. 

My two, connected to the same battery, right now are reading 24.20v and 24.70v.  My BMV702 is reading 24.4v. The BMV is correctly calibrated according to my DVM, has been checked against another DVM, which has in turn been checked against a university reference voltage. Which might of course be wrong 

[roland elsdon]

In reality the only solution is buy new boat keep in marina on trickle charge don't visit  and sell at four years . The batteries will be happy as will the marina, you will have four years trouble free use. Explains growth of new marinas round here.

[MtB]

On 24/10/2017 at 08:29, roland elsdon said:

In reality the only solution is buy new boat keep in marina on trickle charge don't visit  and sell at four years . The batteries will be happy as will the marina, you will have four years trouble free use. Explains growth of new marinas round here.

 

I disagree. Batteries are fine if you recharge them to 100% immediately after drawing any current. 

The fact that it takes 26 hours to charge from 99% to 99.99% and must be done at least once a day, means... oh I get your point.

[nicknorman]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I disagree. Batteries are fine if you recharge them to 100% immediately after drawing any current. 

The fact that it takes 26 hours to charge from 99% to 99.99% and must be done at least once a day, means... oh I get your point.

Just get lithium batteries!

[system 4-50]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

In which case it is probably calibrated correctly. 

My two, connected to the same battery, right now are reading 24.20v and 24.70v.  My BMV702 is reading 24.4v. The BMV is correctly calibrated according to my DVM, has been checked against another DVM, which has in turn been checked against a university reference voltage. Which might of course be wrong 

What happens when you swap the cables to the 2 SGs? Do they still show the same values or do they change?

[Robbo]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Just get lithium batteries!

One of the major benefits is they don’t suffer been partially charged!

[Flyboy]

The bottom line is that the OP has a poor charging regime. 

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Flyboy said:

The bottom line is that the OP has a poor charging regime. 

Most of us do.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

What happens when you swap the cables to the 2 SGs? Do they still show the same values or do they change?

 

Pointless trying, as the voltage measured on the SmartGauge input terminals is the exactly the same on both SGs, and agrees with the BMV702, not what the SmartGauges display. 

[dmr]

18 hours ago, mross said:

But you need to charge to 100% as often as possible - ie daily.

This is not true and not practical for many off-gridders, but appears to be becoming "forum wisdom".

Old tyme liveaboards used to say "run the engine an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening then 8 hours at the weekend". This was fairly good advice but I would say a single 2 hour engine run is better for the engine.

The concept is to charge up to about 80% every day (or every other day if you have a big battery bank). This is mostly bulk charging so is efficient. The crucial thing is to get right up to 100% once per week, or possibly once per fortnight. (I aim for a full charge at least once per month but would struggle to convince others of that).

The key thing here is really really getting to 100% and this will need a good charging voltage like 14.8, or even 15 in winter, or maybe even a "mini equalisation".

Charging to 100% everyday is just a waste of diesel/petrol and engine hours. If your going to do that it would be better to "invest" that wasted money in a set of these new fangled Lithium batteries.

................Dave

 

 

[smileypete]

Common theme seems to be significant 'leccy use from the batts, and monitoring doesn't match up as it's not quite as good as it's thought to be, eg the '100%' problem.

[Boat&Bikes]

9 minutes ago, dmr said:

This is not true and not practical for many off-gridders, but appears to be becoming "forum wisdom".

Old tyme liveaboards used to say "run the engine an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening then 8 hours at the weekend". This was fairly good advice but I would say a single 2 hour engine run is better for the engine.

The concept is to charge up to about 80% every day (or every other day if you have a big battery bank). This is mostly bulk charging so is efficient. The crucial thing is to get right up to 100% once per week, or possibly once per fortnight. (I aim for a full charge at least once per month but would struggle to convince others of that).

The key thing here is really really getting to 100% and this will need a good charging voltage like 14.8, or even 15 in winter, or maybe even a "mini equalisation".

Charging to 100% everyday is just a waste of diesel/petrol and engine hours. If your going to do that it would be better to "invest" that wasted money in a set of these new fangled Lithium batteries.

................Dave

 

 

Thank heaven's for your post. I was beginning to believe I was killing my battery bank quickly. This is similar to my charging regime although I have no way of knowing when my bank is fully charged. Yippee, I can get on with my life. Thanks Dave.

 

Ian.

[Johny London]

At least I seem to have a few sympathisers - thanks Dave, Robbo. But where many seem to be "getting away with it" my set up doesn't seem to want to cut me any slack. That's why I wondered if something else could be going on. It's a pity I can't access the batteries, that way I could have top-up-able ones which might help if the problem is venting off of the electrolyte, for example, or at least take the cables off and meter each one to see what is going on. I'm thinking about cutting that side of the deck out and putting channel round so the deck can be lifted when required but that would be a boatyard job and won't happen anytime soon.

Meanwhile, I'll look for an ammeter with a big shunt, and also a generator - I fancy one of these stephills as I can bolt it to the stern deck and run it off gas...

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/stephill-ssp2000-generator.html#.We8Q6Te1vnM

I won't mind running it as much as I mind running the engine, which should encourage me to charge to 100% more often.

[dmr]

12 minutes ago, Johny London said:

At least I seem to have a few sympathisers - thanks Dave, Robbo. But where many seem to be "getting away with it" my set up doesn't seem to want to cut me any slack. That's why I wondered if something else could be going on. It's a pity I can't access the batteries, that way I could have top-up-able ones which might help if the problem is venting off of the electrolyte, for example, or at least take the cables off and meter each one to see what is going on. I'm thinking about cutting that side of the deck out and putting channel round so the deck can be lifted when required but that would be a boatyard job and won't happen anytime soon.

Meanwhile, I'll look for an ammeter with a big shunt, and also a generator - I fancy one of these stephills as I can bolt it to the stern deck and run it off gas...

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/stephill-ssp2000-generator.html#.We8Q6Te1vnM

I won't mind running it as much as I mind running the engine, which should encourage me to charge to 100% more often.

I don't have a genny but if I did I would be very tempted to go for a gas rather than petrol (a vintage Lister stationary diesel would be my other choice )

The key to battery care is getting to that 100% once in a while and its not easy. After a week there will be some light sulphation and so the battery will charge up to 95% or whatever but give Every indication that its got to 100, you gotta charge it till it looks full then find away to get a bit more in.

In your case with the bad access I would try to muddle through for a couple of years or so on cheapo sealed leisures, replacing them every year if needed, then take a serious look at the price of Lithiums.

...................Dave

[smileypete]

Doesn't always need long hours of genny/engine running.

A programmable solar controller and sunny winter day will do. Just get the batts fully charged by the usual means early on in the day.

If you can keep loads to a minimum during eq charging, then a fairly modest panel/controller setup may do, eg as little as £130ish all in.

OK most winter days are gloomy but there are a few sunny ones.

Edited October 24, 2017 by smileypete

[Johny London]

That is a very good idea!

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

This is not true and not practical for many off-gridders, but appears to be becoming "forum wisdom".

Old tyme liveaboards used to say "run the engine an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening then 8 hours at the weekend". This was fairly good advice but I would say a single 2 hour engine run is better for the engine.

The concept is to charge up to about 80% every day (or every other day if you have a big battery bank). This is mostly bulk charging so is efficient. The crucial thing is to get right up to 100% once per week, or possibly once per fortnight. (I aim for a full charge at least once per month but would struggle to convince others of that).

The key thing here is really really getting to 100% and this will need a good charging voltage like 14.8, or even 15 in winter, or maybe even a "mini equalisation".

Charging to 100% everyday is just a waste of diesel/petrol and engine hours. If your going to do that it would be better to "invest" that wasted money in a set of these new fangled Lithium batteries.

................Dave

I agree with you almost completely. The ‘almost’ part comes from observing that a fair number of boaters are seeing very poor performance from their ‘el cheapos’ when following that regime. Take Nick’s example: two lots of cheap batteries both of which died pretty quickly despite a reasonable charging regime. He changed to Trojans and his problems went away. 

So... are ‘cheapos’ even lower quality these days than they used to be? Has something changed? Why do they suffer so badly in some boats but not in others with seemingly identical treatment?

[Ssscrudddy]

When are you taking your Voltage readings, during the day or when it's dark?
If you are doing it during daylight then you are getting BS readings, because the solar is charging.

Assume a really badly flat battery, 10.8V, start the engine, leave it running for a minute, check the battery voltage... 14.6V... because the alternator is charging it at 14.6V... now immediately turn off the engine. Your battery isn't at 14.6V after just 1 minute of charging.  Now check it again 2 hours later after no more charging, it'll be back to 10.8V

The point I'm trying to make is, you cannot check your batterys' voltage whilst it is charging... DURING DAYLIGHT... because you solar panels are charging them up, even if not by much.

I'm on shore power, I know for a fact my batteries are full, & will say 13.2V that is the float charge of my mains charger. But I also have solar panels, which happen to be set higher than my mains charger.

It's dull & grey & cloudy here, my solar panels are showing
14.6V 0.5A
My MPPT controller is showing at the battery
13.4V 0.7A
(& the MPPT controller cant see what the mains charger is doing other than the Voltage of the battery)

& I expect my mains charger is seeing 13.4V from the battery (because that is what the solar is doing) which is higher than what the mains charger expects, & so it's doing nothing.

Or put it another way, when charging from alternator, batteries will show 14.6V, solar controller sees this & does nothing at all, & so panels can be sitting at 84V 0A, & at the battery side 14.6V 0A according to ther MPPT controller

Why is it even doing anything when my batteries are full? Because my as far as my MPPT controller is concerned the lower 13.2V of my mains charger at float is not enough, so it is still trying to charge. But because there is so little sun it's not enough to even cover the tail charge (& my fridge is 12V & on)

When I'm out I'll do 2 hours of charging in the morning if I'm not going cruising, & let the alternator do the bulk charge. After that I'll let the solar do the rest. I might also do another 2 hours in the evening on the engine depending on what I've used during the day or what I intend using during the evening.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Ssscrudddy

[Dave_P]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

This is not true and not practical for many off-gridders, but appears to be becoming "forum wisdom".

Old tyme liveaboards used to say "run the engine an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening then 8 hours at the weekend". This was fairly good advice but I would say a single 2 hour engine run is better for the engine.

The concept is to charge up to about 80% every day (or every other day if you have a big battery bank). This is mostly bulk charging so is efficient. The crucial thing is to get right up to 100% once per week, or possibly once per fortnight. (I aim for a full charge at least once per month but would struggle to convince others of that).

The key thing here is really really getting to 100% and this will need a good charging voltage like 14.8, or even 15 in winter, or maybe even a "mini equalisation".

Charging to 100% everyday is just a waste of diesel/petrol and engine hours. If your going to do that it would be better to "invest" that wasted money in a set of these new fangled Lithium batteries.

................Dave

 

 

How do I make my batteries charge at 14.8v or 15v?  I never see my charging voltage above 14.5v.  Saying that, my batteries seem to be holding up well.

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

That is a very good idea!

Here's a cheap PWM, it can do custom voltages with a serial to USB cable which costs about a fiver:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EPSolar-10A-LandStar-PWM-Solar-PV-Regulator-Charge-Controller-12V-24V-/282178038084

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PC-Communication-Cable-CC-USB-RS485-150U-for-EPEVER-Solar-Controller-Tracer-A-Y-/272690106721

Needs a lappie to do the custom settings, or a phone with an 'OTG cable' may work:

http://www.epsolarpv.com/en/index.php/Technical/download

A 100W mono solar panel should cost around £80 to £100 off Ebay...

[mrsmelly]

17 hours ago, Johny London said:

Looks like I'm in the dog house again I'm sure I read somewhere on here that 80% was enough provided a weekly 100% was achieved. I'll go ahead with a generator then, it pains me to run the engine, servicing is so expensive.

I'm not as power hungry or mindless as people may think - I always do as many power tasks as possible while the engine is running, don't use a toaster or electric kettle. Microwave very rarely eg a tin of soup goes in a pot on the hob, not in a bowl in the microwave. I don't waste lights even though they are all led and I have tv normally only from 9-12midnight (unless I fall asleep in front of it!). The laptop I use off its own battery which I recharge in engine time, although if I am doing intensive internet research or something, sometimes I have to power it from the boat - what can you do. I use a raspberry pi with kodi and if I use my pvr box (humax dtr1000) I switch it on about 8pm and off at the end of the evening, or standby any time it's not being used. Infact, I cant really save any more power unless I get into completely doing without stuff. I do have a dishwasher and washing machine but always run the engine - ideally when cruising so the extra revs are not wasted. When I get a 12v fridge the inverter will go off at night - I've no idea really how much it self consumes and could be the best area to make a saving.

Hopefully a good few 100% charges will clear the sulfation.

Why do you find servicing so expensive? what engine is it. My Isuzu costs peanuts I change the oil every 200 hours which is a twenty minute job and costs £4.15 pence for the filter and about £9 quid for the oil of good quality or if I pay too much about 15 quid hardly an expensive thing to do so what else do you do that costs so much? Please don't tell me you buy oil and filters anywhere the word " marine " is used?