New batteries - problem

[peterboat]

I dont care what you say having had an electric car, I know they are the future but not with Lithium batteries, to expensive and to dangerous plus a lot of the lithium in the world is where we wont be allowed to mine it. Sodium is cheap and safe and maybe two years away whats the point of buying yesterdays technology when tomorrows is nearly here. Its the investors that have forced the price of lithium up but thats difficult with the sodium battery. My electric bathtub will have GTPs whilst sodium comes on stream not much more expensive than Trojans but better life and 1500 cycles, as my charging will be by solar and whispergen both adjustable for these batteries I will have future proofed the bathtub!

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I dont care what you say having had an electric car, I know they are the future but not with Lithium batteries, to expensive and to dangerous plus a lot of the lithium in the world is where we wont be allowed to mine it. Sodium is cheap and safe and maybe two years away whats the point of buying yesterdays technology when tomorrows is nearly here. Its the investors that have forced the price of lithium up but thats difficult with the sodium battery. My electric bathtub will have GTPs whilst sodium comes on stream not much more expensive than Trojans but better life and 1500 cycles, as my charging will be by solar and whispergen both adjustable for these batteries I will have future proofed the bathtub!

Problem is when they say "two years away" it may be considerable longer.

For example when I was in the 6th form in 1970, my physics teacher showed me magazine articles about the hydrogen fuel cell which was then claimed to be "two years away from being viable to power a car". Whilst there have been many prototype fuel cell powered vehicle, 47 years later none are in volume production. 

Same with aluminium air batteries, I saw a prototype demonstrated in 1985. It's main market was supposed to be for powering cars and standby power. Again it was only a couple of years away from being productionised. 

So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the sodium glass battery.

 

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Problem is when they say "two years away" it may be considerable longer.

For example when I was in the 6th form in 1970, my physics teacher showed me magazine articles about the hydrogen fuel cell which was then claimed to be "two years away from being viable to power a car". Whilst there have been many prototype fuel cell powered vehicle, 47 years later none are in volume production. 

Same with aluminium air batteries, I saw a prototype demonstrated in 1985. It's main market was supposed to be for powering cars and standby power. Again it was only a couple of years away from being productionised. 

So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the sodium glass battery.

 

The maker of the lithium battery is one of the team making the sodium batteries clearly he thinks the lithium battery is all its cracked up to be..........................

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

T21 (Sedbrgh) AKA "The Barge".

I have a few hundred hours instructing on them before we went to the K2, K13, Blanik, IS28 & Twin Astir

My highest ever wire launch was in the "Barge" as we kited to 3200 feet

I was also an Instructor at RAF Syston teaching cadets to fly in the Motor Falke

I learnt in one of  them in the late sixties - when in the ATC, at RAF Sealand. Never been in a glider since. Shame.

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

The maker of the lithium battery is one of the team making the sodium batteries clearly he thinks the lithium battery is all its cracked up to be..........................

Yes and he is 94 years old. I believe he Invented the Li-on battery in 1980, but it took 30 years to get it into viable production.

Edited November 19, 2017 by cuthound
To unmangle the effects of autocorrect.

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

I dont care what you say having had an electric car, I know they are the future but not with Lithium batteries, to expensive and to dangerous plus a lot of the lithium in the world is where we wont be allowed to mine it. Sodium is cheap and safe and maybe two years away whats the point of buying yesterdays technology when tomorrows is nearly here. Its the investors that have forced the price of lithium up but thats difficult with the sodium battery. My electric bathtub will have GTPs whilst sodium comes on stream not much more expensive than Trojans but better life and 1500 cycles, as my charging will be by solar and whispergen both adjustable for these batteries I will have future proofed the bathtub!

There's not much actual lithium in a lithium battery:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=how+much+lithium+in+a+lithium+battery

Lithiums are as cheap as they need to be for mobile devices but need to come down more for larger scale use like cars, bearing in mind around half(?) of the cost is in the packs and management systems.

ETA: Looks like lithium comes out around $20 per kg, enough for a kWh lithium battery.

Edited November 19, 2017 by smileypete

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Yes and he is 94 years old. I believe he Invented the Li-on battery in 1980, but it took 30 years to get it into viable production.

 

23 minutes ago, smileypete said:

There's not much actual lithium in a lithium battery:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=how+much+lithium+in+a+lithium+battery

Lithiums are as cheap as they need to be for mobile devices but need to come down more for larger scale use like cars, bearing in mind around half(?) of the cost is in the packs and management systems.

ETA: Looks like lithium comes out around $20 per kg, enough for a kWh lithium battery.

So how come Liithium batteries are so expensive? scrap lead is £1.40 a kilo seems like someone making a lot of money out of lithium batteries doesnt it? must be the investors I suspect and again do you really want something as unsafe as lithium in your boat?

[smileypete]

35 minutes ago, peterboat said:

 

So how come Liithium batteries are so expensive? scrap lead is £1.40 a kilo seems like someone making a lot of money out of lithium batteries doesnt it? must be the investors I suspect and again do you really want something as unsafe as lithium in your boat?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=why+are+lithium+batteries+expensive

Look on the bright side, if lithiums get too expensive due to supply shortages it'll spur more research and investment into new alternatives.

Edited November 19, 2017 by smileypete

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 Same with aluminium air batteries, I saw a prototype demonstrated in 1985. It's main market was supposed to be for powering cars and standby power. Again it was only a couple of years away from being productionised. 

So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the sodium glass battery.

 

The sodium glas battery is only at the 'proof of concept' stage at the moment. It may never get out of the lab. Noises being made that are sorting the cathode problem. Not sure it will be goodenough?

[cuthound]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

The sodium glas battery is only at the 'proof of concept' stage at the moment. It may never get out of the lab. Noises being made that are sorting the cathode problem. Not sure it will be goodenough?

Love the pun on the inventors name.

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Love the pun on the inventors name.

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/goodenough-introduces-new-battery-technology

I thought it worth at least a greenie?

.....glad someone got it!

Edited November 19, 2017 by Dr Bob

[cuthound]

3 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I thought it worth at least a greenie?

.....glad someone got it!

Oh go on then.

[MtB]

I thought it almost, but not quite goodenough for a greenie

[Dr Bob]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I thought it almost, but not quite goodenough for a greenie

It gets worse.....!

[cuthound]

I wonder if using glass technology for batteries will bring new problems.

I mean, how can you take specific gravity reading some with a solid electrolyte?..

Q. Dear forum, in the recent cold weather my new sodium glass battery has shattered.

A. That's because you specified the wrong type, you should have specified frosted glass batteries.

I'll get my coat.

[peterboat]

I was reading some stuff the other week that says its rather further on than we think but who knows  really? and it isnt going to be quick enough for the electric bathtub

[Johny London]

On 18/11/2017 at 12:19, Johny London said:

To change tac somewhat, I have been in touch with a company that is developing low cost lithium battery re purposing. They seem interested in the boating market and have asked me for details of my requirements, which I have provided. www.Aceleronltd.com - they are based in Hayes. I'm hoping I might be able to test an early product. A chink of light anyway and I will report back with any developments.

On another note - my battery desulfator has arrived and is now deployed

I had been wondering how physically large it would be - certainly looks beefy in the picture yet if it was then the power consumption would be rather high - considering the proportions of the heatsink. Yet it only consumes 200ma. On receiving it, I was not too surprised to find that the box was considerably smaller than I had hoped. But it didn't end there - the box contained the leads and the unit - and I can say that the thing itself is about the size of a standard box of Swan Vestas! A tad disappointing, but I can certainly see how they can afford to take a few returns - must have cost all of 59p to manufacture

However - the experiment continues. I have a good idea of how long my batteries last from 100% s/g reading, and it will remain connected for a month or so. Without a sizable and undoubted improvement in capacity, I shall take them up on their 60 day no quibble return offer.

Will report again but I can hear the told you so's all ready

And the results are in...

Nay sayers 1, hopeful newbie 0

I had the desulfator connected up constantly for the best part of 60 days, only removing it to carefully package and return it, under the warranty. I have today been refunded the full cost - and the return postage.

I'm puzzled - it made absolutely no difference as far as I could tell (not scientific, but my batteries where at their usual state of discharge after the usual use each evening). If it had brought them back 100%, or even any appreciable amount, it would have been easy to spot. But I'd have to say it didn't do anything at all in this case.

The people at Battery Extra were helpful and fair. I'm left wondering if these work in some instances or if people just hold onto them in the hope that eventually they might have some effect, or at least stop the situation deteriorating? Anyway, I tried, and these are my findings. I would have thought a nearly new set of batteries would have been a good candidate for successful desulfating.

In the meantime, I've found the mega charge setting on the Victron (Equalisation) and having had 48hrs on mains hook up, I have implemented this many times over (maybe 8-10 times of an hour each). Yes it's true, I really will try anything. I watch with interest as the SG still reads 98% after 2 hours since I have been back to just battery. But we all know what a merry dance that thing likes to lead.

[LadyG]

On 19/11/2017 at 10:30, Alan de Enfield said:

 

T21 (Sedbrgh) AKA "The Barge".

I have a few hundred hours instructing on them before we went to the K2, K13, Blanik, IS28 & Twin Astir

My highest ever wire launch was in the "Barge" as we kited to 3200 feet

I was also an Instructor at RAF Syston teaching cadets to fly in the Motor Falke

Did you try he Eon primary? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliotts_Primary_EoN [Dishforth]

 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Did you try he Eon primary? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliotts_Primary_EoN [Dishforth]

 

No, but I was an instructor in the RAF teaching cadets to fly - I also flew many times at RAF Dishforth and spent most Christmas's just up the road at Sutton-Bank Gliding Club.

I never flew the Eon Primary, but I did actually go solo in one of the other EoN gliders the Olympia 2B (built in 1948)

[bizzard]

I thought K2 and K13 were big admiralty follies, ww1 steam submarines, of which K13 sank on trials in the Gareloch in 1917.  

[forsberg]

20 hours ago, Johny London said:

 

In the meantime, I've found the mega charge setting on the Victron (Equalisation) and having had 48hrs on mains hook up, I have implemented this many times over (maybe 8-10 times of an hour each). Yes it's true, I really will try anything. I watch with interest as the SG still reads 98% after 2 hours since I have been back to just battery. But we all know what a merry dance that thing likes to lead.

A bit of understandig why you do Equalisation and the consequences is perhaps needed. Over time the 6 cells in a 12V battery will get a slightly diffrent voltage and as a result will not hold a equal charge.

The battery can not deliver more Amp hours then the charge in the most unbalanced cell. Using quick high amp loads like a starter helps counter this but eventually you will need a equalisation.

The drawback of a equalizer charge is that it is in fact just a overcharge and as such boil away some of the electrolyte which is why you should only do this once every 1-2 months on sealed batteries unless you want to shorten the lifespan.

Another way to counter this is to ensure the batteries are well vented so no part of the battery gets hotter while charged and by not stacking them directly side to side.

The obvious design flaw being that the 4 cells in the middle always will be hotter.

[Johny London]

I'd hear a bit of an over charge could get some of the clag off, but fair enough. Knackered is knackered, I guess. It didn't make any difference, capacity wise.

[LadyG]

41 minutes ago, bizzard said:

I thought K2 and K13 were big admiralty follies, ww1 steam submarines, of which K13 sank on trials in the Gareloch in 1917.  

I*'m not sure about sinking on sea trials, there was a little one that ran on to the shore just on the corner, probably stll there. WW2 I think.

That one looks like it was designed by comittee

Edited January 17, 2018 by LadyG

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, forsberg said:

A bit of understandig why you do Equalisation and the consequences is perhaps needed. Over time the 6 cells in a 12V battery will get a slightly diffrent voltage and as a result will not hold a equal charge.

 

50 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I'd hear a bit of an over charge could get some of the clag off, but fair enough.

Forsberg describes ‘equalisation’ where you equalise an imbalance between the cells. You describe ‘desulphation’ where you remove some hardened sulphate. Both operations are carried out at the same time by the same method (a controlled over-charge), so neither of you are wrong. The two issues generally go hand in hand, so the one operation addresses both of them. 

Excessive equalisation/desulphation charges don’t only boil off electrolyte, they also result in excessive corrosion of the plates. If a 15V+ charge had no adverse consequences then we’d all charge our batteries at those higher voltages all the time. 

[bizzard]

51 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I*'m not sure about sinking on sea trials, there was a little one that ran on to the shore just on the corner, probably stll there. WW2 I think.

That one looks like it was designed by comittee

It failed to surface after its first dive trial. It buried its bows in the mud with the stern and props sticking up out of the water. A huge rescue operation was activated to get the crew out.  Virtually all the K boats got into serious trouble at one time or another, with pressure hull leaks through funnel caps and engine room vent caps and trim trouble, boiler oil spray burners blowing back. Many men lost there lives in them, just in trials, not even in action with the enemy.  The book ''The K boats'' by Don Everitt is a good read.