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New batteries - problem


Johny London

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17 hours ago, Chewbacka said:

You may wish to read this before putting a Lithium battery onto your boat. 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/4721171/terrifying-tesla-video-shows-unstoppable-electric-car-inferno-that-took-35-firefighters-to-extinguish/

Basically if you damage the battery and it catches fire, your boat will be lost before it can be extinguished, though I admit I don't foresee many ways you could accidentally damage the battery pack to the extent it sets itself ablaze.

Tesla use LiCoO2 batteries.  You would use LiFiPO4 batteries in boats which are one of the safest lithium batteries you can get even when misused.

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On 19/11/2017 at 10:23, Robbo said:

Tesla use LiCoO2 batteries.  You would use LiFiPO4 batteries in boats which are one of the safest lithium batteries you can get even when misused.

 

What sort of batteries were they that delayed the Boeng Dreamliner aeroplane entering service?

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

What sort of batteries were they that delayed the Boeng Dreamliner aeroplane entering service?

LiCoO2, they were the only type available at the time.   They provide their own oxygen that’s why they are hard to put out.

 

Edited by Robbo
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26 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

This is the last one I went in.

Gliding22.JPG

 

T21 (Sedbrgh) AKA "The Barge".

I have a few hundred hours instructing on them before we went to the K2, K13, Blanik, IS28 & Twin Astir

My highest ever wire launch was in the "Barge" as we kited to 3200 feet

I was also an Instructor at RAF Syston teaching cadets to fly in the Motor Falke

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

T21 (Sedbrgh) AKA "The Barge".

I have a few hundred hours instructing on them before we went to the K2, K13, Blanik, IS28 & Twin Astir

My highest ever wire launch was in the "Barge" as we kited to 3200 feet

I was also an Instructor at RAF Syston teaching cadets to fly in the Motor Falke

This one is still flying.

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18 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Tesla use LiCoO2 batteries.  You would use LiFiPO4 batteries in boats which are one of the safest lithium batteries you can get even when misused.

Out of interest, price for say 330AH of LiFiPO4 would be how much?

Richard

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2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

What would you like me to compare it too?

I would say 'price' is an absolute thing rather than relative. If you want, you can compare it to 110AH batteries at Midland Chandlers

Richard

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On 19/11/2017 at 10:43, RLWP said:

Out of interest, price for say 330AH of LiFiPO4 would be how much?

Richard

 

ISTR the convenient operating range of lithium batts is from 80% down to 20%, and back. Is this why you asked for 330AH which I think would be roughly comparable to a set of four x 225AH 6v semi-tractions?

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

ISTR the convenient operating range of lithium batts is from 80% down to 20%, and back. Is this why you asked for 330AH which I think would be roughly comparable to a set of four x 225AH 6v semi-tractions?

No, it was an off-the-top-of-my-head quick comparison thing. Most boats have 110AH 12V batteries, often three

You're right though, such a boat could probably manage with 150-200AH of lithium batteries

Richard

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1 minute ago, peterboat said:

The above is the one of the reasons that the sodium glass battery will more than likely be the way forward that and the one tenth cost of them :rolleyes:

I think you’ll be fooling yourself if you think they will be 1/10th the cost.   The Lithium in the battery is only roughly 40% the cost of the battery itself.

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Not heard of sodium glass - all very exciting. When you consider how long the infernal combustion engine has had, being revised and improved, I'm sure it will be the same with batteries but of course they are only just getting started in earnest now.

I thought with a lithium, you could use all the stated a/h?.

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No - I know the internal electronics control when it's charged and when it's effectively dead, but I guess it depends whether the manufacturer quotes its capacity in terms of what it can actually deliver, or as with the case of lead acid - what it could, but can't really.

 

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20 minutes ago, RLWP said:

No, it was an off-the-top-of-my-head quick comparison thing. Most boats have 110AH 12V batteries, often three

You're right though, such a boat could probably manage with 150-200AH of lithium batteries

Richard

Quick and rough figures.

Usually lithium is around £100 per 10ah, so a 200ah battery is around £2000.   3 leisure battery’s is roughly around £200 and roughly around 300 cycles.  The lithiums would be around 4000 cycles.    The lithiums come into there own when charging as they are more efficient and can except the bulk charge to around 98% charge.  They also don’t suffer if you don’t charge them which is prob the biggest issue for us off-grid boaters.

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

ISTR it is critically important not to overcharge them hence the 80% top end.  Going down to 20% only gives a working range of 60% so 150-200ah might still be a bit small. 

The drop in replacement batteries have BMS in them so you can’t overcharge or over discharge them so you can use 100% of the rated capacity.

Edited by Robbo
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6 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Quick and rough figures.

Usually lithium is around £100 per 10ah, so a 200ah battery is around £2000.   3 leisure battery’s is roughly around £200 and roughly around 300 cycles.  The lithiums would be around 4000 cycles.    The lithiums come into there own when charging as they are more efficient and can except the bulk charge to around 98% charge.  They also don’t suffer if you don’t charge them which is prob the biggest issue for us off-grid boaters.

Would you need to invest in charging equipment, or can you just wire your alternator up to them through a simple isolator?

Richard

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On 19/11/2017 at 11:21, Robbo said:

Quick and rough figures.

Usually lithium is around £100 per 10ah, so a 200ah battery is around £2000.   3 leisure battery’s is roughly around £200 and roughly around 300 cycles.  The lithiums would be around 4000 cycles.    The lithiums come into there own when charging as they are more efficient and can except the bulk charge to around 98% charge.  They also don’t suffer if you don’t charge them which is prob the biggest issue for us off-grid boaters.

The drop in replacement batteries have BMS in them so you can’t overcharge or over discharge them so you can use 100% of the rated capacity.

 

Thanks that's helpful.

The other thing I've read is that you can't parallel them up as cell balancing is also critical. You have to buy one battery of the correct size. Is this now redundant advice with the BMS? 

What happens if the BMS electronics fails? Do you have to buy a whole new battery?

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Just now, RLWP said:

Would you need to invest in charging equipment, or can you just wire your alternator up to them through a simple isolator?

Richard

Depends..    here is Relions charging guide..

 

 

 

 

Thank you for purchasing Relion Lithium Battery. We truly appreciate your business. This document is designed to aid your experience by providing information about charging, basic troubleshooting, etc. Please let us know if you have any questions.

CHARGING
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Because of the different parameters required for charging lithium ion batteries as opposed to lead acid batteries, we do not recommend using a standard lead acid charger for your RELiON Battery. Using a lead acid battery charger with lithium ion technology presents risks of damage, decreased lifespan, and overall suboptimal performance. We pride ourselves on providing the very best batteries on the market, and we want all of our customers to have the tools to get the very best performance possible. Relion Lithium chargers are specifically programmed for lithium ion technology. These chargers are manufactured by Pro Charging Systems and Progressive Dynamics, they give you both the trusted brand and confidence that your batteries will charge properly every cycle. If you already have a charger with an AGM setting this is usually appropriate or featuring adjustable settings, you will need to alter those settings to accommodate the lithium ion batteries. Each Relion Battery has a rate specifying the maximum amount of current with which it can be charged. It is important to make sure that you do not charge the battery with higher current than rated. Because of the 99% efficiency of the technology, bulk charging is normally the only stage necessary to charge our lives lithium ion battery. If your charger can be programmed to deliver constant current and charge up to 14.6V, there is no need for an absorb phase. Some chargers require both a bulk stage and an absorb stage, programmed at different voltages. In this case, you would set the bulk at 14.2V and absorb at 14.6V. RELiON lithium ion batteries need to reach between 14.4V and 14.6V to be at full charge and deliver optimal results. If your charging voltage is higher than this range and cannot be programmed to a lower voltage, it is not recommended for use with our batteries. Likewise, if your charging voltage is lower than the required 14.4V–14.6V range, your Relion Batteries will not reach full charge and thus will not perform to their full potential. If a float charge setting is necessary to program your charger, it should be set to 13.8V. However, one of the many benefits of Relion Batteries is that they lose less than 9% of their energy per year in self discharge. This allows you to come back to a nearly fully charged battery even if it has been left idle for a long period of time. Please note that for most orders, we fully charge our batteries prior to shipment for our customers’ convenience. In some cases, either due to customer request or expedited shipment, batteries are shipped at 40% charge. This is the best voltage for storage of lithium ion batteries. The 40% state of charge allows the batteries to be stored with minimal aging and self discharge. If you have any questions about charging, please do not hesitate to contact a RELiON Power Pro . We are more than happy to assist you in finding the proper charging solution to suit your needs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TROUBLESHOOTING and USER GUIDE
_____________________________________________________________________________________

RELiON Batteries are outfitted with a sophisticated Battery Management System (BMS) that protects against most outside factors that would normally damage a battery. The BMS provides these features:

 

• Low Voltage Protection – Automatically disconnects at 8V

• Over Voltage Protection – Automatically disconnects at 15.8V

• Short Circuit Protection – Automatically disconnects

• Reverse Polarity Protection – Automatically disconnects

• Internal cell balancing – Automatically balances cells

• Charge Balancing – Independent balancing for batteries connected in parallel and/or series

• Series and Parallel connections - contact RELiON POWER PRO’S for these applications.

 

If your RELiON Battery is not functioning correctly, please follow these simple steps or contact a RELiON Power Pro.

First you need to determine battery voltage. Battery voltage can be read by using a standard DC volt meter. (Follow manufactures instructions and safety measures). A fully charged 12 volt battery should read 13.5 volts, an empty battery will read 12.2 volts. If your BMS engages, your battery internally disconnects and will read zero volts. Because of this, a charger will not detect a connection and will not charge the battery. This can be misinterpreted as a problem with the battery but is actually RELiON battery protection.

The first troubleshooting step to take if your BMS engages is to simply disconnect each terminal and reconnect. In many cases, this will disengage the BMS and your battery will be back to normal working condition.

For some issues, such as BMS protection against low voltage, your Relion Battery can be reenergized by applying (jumping) 12 volts to the terminals, much like jump starting a car battery, this can be easily done with jumper cables. If this does not work, it will need to be charged in parallel with another battery that has enough voltage at least 10 volts in a 12 volt battery, this allows the charger to detect a complete circuit. You can use any type of 12 volt battery. Connect your charger directly to a working 12 volt battery. Then, connect your Relion Battery in parallel (positive to positive, negative to negative) to the first battery. The Relion Battery’s BMS will reenergize, bringing the battery back up to its voltage prior to the BMS kicking in. After about 20 minutes, reconnect the charger directly to the Relion Battery, and the charging process will continue normally.

In instances of Series or Parallel Connections, your RELiON batteries must be maintained to voltages within 50 millivolts (or .05 volts) of each other. If your system gets out of balance you must charge each battery independently with a 12 volt charger. Once charging is complete, let batteries stand for 4 hours and then check voltage if the batteries voltages are not within 50 millivolts of each other… discharge higher voltage batteries down to the lowest voltage battery, this can be done with a small 12 volt light or similar discharge source. A 2 amp discharge (a single light) at 30 second intervals should reduce voltage in small increments… repeat the process as needed until all batteries voltages are within the 50 millivolt range.

Keep in mind that the batteries you purchase must be suited for your application. If the batteries are being asked to deliver beyond their capability, issues will persist. Our RELiON Power Pros are here to ensure each and every customer receives the battery (or batteries) ideal for their application. If you have any questions or concerns about your product please feel free to contact a RELiON Power Pro for assistance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Thanks that's helpful.

The other thing I've read is that you can't parallel them up as cell balancing is also critical. You have to buy one battery of the correct size. Is this now redundant advice with the BMS? 

What happens if the BMS electronics fails? Do you have to buy a whole new battery?

You can parallel, I think it’s series that’s the issue.  I’m planning on two 200ah Relions.    BMS, the likes of Victron have external BMS systems.  If you have the Victron charging equipment it prob better going down that line.

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On 19/11/2017 at 11:35, Robbo said:

 

You can parallel, I think it’s series that’s the issue.  I’m planning on two 200ah Relions.    BMS, the likes of Victron have external BMS systems.  If you have the Victron charging equipment it prob better going down that line.

 

Thanks. My charging equipment is a 24v Whispergen, a Sterling 24v 30a Pro Charge Ultra and a 24v american alternator, the brand name escapes me. 

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15 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Series and Parallel connections - contact RELiON POWER PRO’S for these applications.

 

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

My charging equipment is a 24v Whispergen, a Sterling 24v 30a Pro Charge Ultra and a 24v american alternator

So you’d need to speak to them directly. 

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