New batteries - problem

[MtB]

On 11/11/2017 at 10:49, WotEver said:

Yeah, I recently bought a carpet cleaner. It does a rubbish job of cleaning the windows so I’m throwing it in the bin...

 

A fairer analogy would be the sales literature for your carpet cleaner say it cleans carpets, but when you read the instructions you find on Page 30, it says it only half-cleans them.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[rusty69]

25 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Don't throw it in the bin, Rusty69 will give you a tenner for it. He says he needs another door stop. 

Its a tenner for both!

[WotEver]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A fairer analogy would be the sales literature for your carpet cleaner say it cleans carpets, but when you read the instructions you find on Page 30, it says it only half-cleans them.

No it wouldn’t. 

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

After my next experiment with the desulfator (should at least be interesting) I intend to go lithium.

Plan C, then Plan C again.

Possibly worth finding out what actually works right now for off grid liveaboards? Usually a variant of Plan B....

Edited November 11, 2017 by smileypete

[system 4-50]

I have tried xxxxx. I don't fully understand how xxxxx works but I have asked around and researched where I could. It doesn't work. I know that it works for a lot of people, but I can also see that quite a few people have trouble with it, and it doesn't work for me. It could be me, or the way I've implemented it, but I don't see any absolute way of discovering how, so I'll ignore the possibility. In my researching, I have discovered yyyyy. It has some advantages over xxxxx, and it is relatively new technology. Not many people are using it and there isn't a rush to take it up, but this could just be because it is new. It does have some complications but it is an emerging technology and these will be ironed out. I expect this ironing out process to be fully complete the day before I make my purchase. Any mistakes I am making in the use of xxxxx will not apply to my use of yyyyy because they are different colours.

Replace xxxxx and yyyyy in the above mantra according to taste. It is highly adaptable and can be used with toilets as well.

[cereal tiller]

12 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

If you mean, how do I get the charge voltage to 16.5v , I have a bench power supply which I can run from the inverter powered by 2 of the batteries to equalise the other 2. Then swap them over. But I am wary of doing that with my existing bank of sealed batteries.

I do exactly the same ,it means the "Idle Bank" gets fully charged over a 24 hour period, the only way it can be done off grid.

[smileypete]

What might help is a standard survey/set of questions for those seeking help with failing batts. Maybe a short version plus something more comprehensive.

Otherwise information comes out in dribs and drabs and it can all turn into an almighty jumble of opinions and ideas.

Edited November 11, 2017 by smileypete

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, smileypete said:

What might help is a standard survey/set of questions for those seeking help with failing batts. Maybe a short version plus something more comprehensive.

Otherwise information comes out in dribs and drabs and it can all turn into an almighty jumble of opinions and ideas.

I  nominate SP,Wotever,Nick and TB.

[smileypete]

To get things rolling (have to go out now):

Question 1: What brand/make, product number*, type*, capacity, and number of batts.  (*where known)

 

[cereal tiller]

1 minute ago, smileypete said:

To get things rolling (have to go out now):

Question 1: What brand/make, product number*, type*, capacity, and number of batts.  (*where known)

 

Yuasa 80 A/H ca/ca ,Six of them, can be split  with The Rotary Master Switch.

[MtB]

On 11/11/2017 at 11:53, smileypete said:

To get things rolling (have to go out now):

Question 1: What brand/make, product number*, type*, capacity, and number of batts.  (*where known)

 

Question 2: How often do you fully charge them, and how are you determining when to stop charging them?

[Keeping Up]

1 hour ago, smileypete said:

Out of interest what's the make/type/model/capacity of the current set?

As Nick says if you can safely remove the batt fillers and check the SGs then they may be rather low or all over the place.

If part of the bank can be isolated, one way to safely limit EQ current is use a small solar panel laid flat. Or use a current limiting DC boost converter, but you don't want the output voltage to start or pull below the input voltage. It's only the EQ current that causes water loss.

Maybe part of the problem is the boat market is a tiny subset of the european leisure market (motorhomes etc) so leisure batts that work fine for them might fail miserably on boats.

 

But I still think:

Plan A for most (95%?) of boaters would be decent brand leisure batts.

Plan B would be Trojans but only if they can be provided with the correct charge and EQ voltages, and required maintenance and monitoring. I expect this needs a genuine long term interest, hmmm...

Plan C is to use a less common battery make/type/chemistry etc, but then you may be the guinea pig on that one.

The current set is a bank of 4 Exide 115 Ah Dual leisure batteries https://www.tayna.co.uk/Exide-ER550-DUAL-Leisure-Battery-Porta-Power-PP115-P7641.html ... would Exide count as a "decent" brand?

The word Dual puts me off - it almost certainly means they are just re-badged starter batteries. The top looks like it may be removable but it has resisted all my efforts so far.

I found during the summer that in absorption mode they followed the typical "rule of one-third" in that every hour the current reduced to one-third of tis previous value (plus a bit for tail current) and the amp-hour deficit according to the BM2 also reduced to one-third of its earlier value. Thus after taking my usual load of 80-90 Ah, the charging current was roughly:

• After 1 hour, 30 Amps
• After 2 hours, 11 Amps
• After 3 hours, 5 Amps
• After 4 hours, 3 Amps
• After 5 hours, 2.6 Amps
• After 6 hours, 2.5 Amps
• After 7 hours, 2.5 Amps
• After 8 hours, 2.5 Amps

To me this suggests that they are nearly charged after 4 hours, and that after 5-6 hours it merely holds the "status quo"

I can limit the current when equalising, as my bench PSU is a variable-voltage variable-current supply. But I rarely find that the current rises far above the 2.5A figure, after the initial burst of enthusiasm is over.

During the summer we do travel a lot, so roughly two-thirds of the hours I quoted in my regime are a fortunate by-product of cruising.. But the other third (ie about 300 hours this year) represent a colossal waste of diesel! At the moment plans A B and C all look equally attractive (or unattractive) to me.

[cereal tiller]

24 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Question 2: How often do you fully charge them, and how are you determining when to stop charging them?

Each bank  gets Fully charged al least once a week, the "Idle" bank is charged until each battery of the three is  receiving 2 WATTS,(at 15.3 Volts)Then Charging is considered as completed.

Edited November 11, 2017 by cereal tiller

[nb Innisfree]

I reckon AGMs take some beating, provided charge voltage isn't exceeded for too long they can take a lot of abuse. 

ETA: they can tolerate high current charging. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by nb Innisfree

[Richard10002]

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Well to be strictly accurate for much of what you list, isn't it the butler actually using them?

Do people need/have butlers in their flats and houses, given that many will have most of Nicks kit, or similar?

[Iain_S]

19 hours ago, Johny London said:

(snip)

... but bearing in mind it's a new canaline engine that came set up with the alternators, I would have to trust that the chaps there knew what they were doing and specified something that was fit for its intended purpose.

(snip)

Don't assume; check the pulley diameters.

The alternator on Kelpie (Beta 28) gives full output at just above idle: the output from one on Gamebird (Vetus M2) is still increasing at 3000 engine r.p.m., if the batteries are down a bit, and at idle is barely charging. The difference is down to the large crankshaft pulley on Kelpie and the comparatively small one on Gamebird. 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

The current set is a bank of 4 Exide 115 Ah Dual leisure batteries https://www.tayna.co.uk/Exide-ER550-DUAL-Leisure-Battery-Porta-Power-PP115-P7641.html ... would Exide count as a "decent" brand?

The word Dual puts me off - it almost certainly means they are just re-badged starter batteries. The top looks like it may be removable but it has resisted all my efforts so far.

Same batteries as mine and they are four and a half years old now.

The word dual does not put me off at this price point. Think about truck with sleeper cabs and the domestic stuff the drivers use. I feel aat least some on here make far to much of the advantages of Trojan like batteries in typical use.

I will but the same again next time.

[cuthound]

Q3. What type of battery do you have?

a) Wet cell leisure battery

b ) Semi Traction battery

c) Traction battery

d) AGM

e) Other, please specify

 

Q4. What charging equipment do you use

Q5. Are you a

a) Liveaboard

b ) Leisure 

Q6. Do you have solar panels, if so what total wattage

[Johny London]

I wonder if inflicting sudden heavy loads does a lot of the damage - whenever my engine is running, it positively groans when the 240v fridge kicks in. I was told that 12v fridges don't take as big a surge, no idea if its true. Maybe that and other large white goods would be relevant - not just a power audit but a peak power spike audit?.

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Same batteries as mine and they are four and a half years old now.

The word dual does not put me off at this price point. Think about truck with sleeper cabs and the domestic stuff the drivers use. I feel aat least some on here make far to much of the advantages of Trojan like batteries in typical use.

I will but the same again next time.

29kg so plenty of weight!

[bizzard]

Most batteries used to have a ''HEAVY DUTY'' label on em.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

29kg so plenty of weight!

My 12v batteries are 57kgs each

[Richard10002]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My 12v batteries are 57kgs each

But they are 200Ah each aren’t they? Slightly heavier per Ah. What make and model? Varta IIRC.

[system 4-50]

Q7. How long did your last set of batteries last before you had to replace them?

Edited November 11, 2017 by system 4-50

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Q4. What charging equipment do you use
 

This question demands a bit of detail in the answer such as info on Voltage and amps ie is it an old (2000-2005 Alternator that cant get to 14V) and are you getting sufficient amps in over the hours of charge - we were lucky to get 30 Ahrs in in the first hour of charge with our old setup when down to 80% Soc. How does the charge vary with engine speed - we are lucky and get full charge even at tickover. When does your charging device go into float mode? Both our Victron and Sterling AtoB go into float too early for my liking.