New batteries - problem

[mchancox]

12 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Or, if a heavy duty version is preferred, try a Pangolin.

:))

There are a wide range of enhanced charging systems available. Have a look at sterling power products A to B charger. 

Did you replace the whole bank or just the ones that were dropping off?

[mchancox]

There are a wide range of enhanced charging systems available. Have a look at sterling power products A to B charger. 

Did you replace the whole bank or just the ones that were dropping off?

Have a look through this too. It’s useful to understand alternators. Just because you have 175A you might not necessarily be getting a decent charge current. Depends on rotation speed. 

 

 

[croftie]

5 hours ago, Johny London said:

 I know that my new batteries capacity goes from 100% at 8pm in the evening, to 40% when I get up (yes I know about the 60% rule and I'm really at the point now where the fridge will need switching off at night). That's about 60a/h.

Later on in the thread you confirmed the 60ah was the total usage between 8pm and morning, Unless I'm missing something you are saying that 60ah is dropping them from 100% SOC to 40% SOC which would roughly be typical for a decent single100ah battery. You have 4 x 110, if your figures are correct I doubt anything could revive batteries that are down to 25% capacity due to sulfation. Either the batteries are totally shot or your 100% and or 40%  SOC figures are way out.

Edited November 10, 2017 by croftie

[cuthound]

49 minutes ago, Johny London said:

 so an Ardvarc could help.

Particularly when the boat becomes infested with ants 

 

Did you mean about an Adverc?

Edited November 10, 2017 by cuthound

[Johny London]

Yes Mike, I replaced the whole bank. I did check the four I took out, two didn't seem too bad, two did. That got me wondering about how I have the bank wired, as the new set seem to be dying also, though I can't tell if its two or all four because access is dreadful.

I take the point about the alternator - I don't expect to get 175a at tickover, and I realise that the batteries will only take what they will take, but bearing in mind it's a new canaline engine that came set up with the alternators, I would have to trust that the chaps there knew what they were doing and specified something that was fit for its intended purpose.

Yes croftie, that's about the size of it. The voltage readings on the sg concur with its charge approximations, it's another disaster. Hence this thread, trying to think of other possible causes (bank wiring) etc. They never went below 60%, yet one night after a good 100% charge they dropped off rather a lot - can't remember the exact figure now - and have rapidly gone down from there. Hence I'm trying the desulfator as a last resort because obviously I cant keep going through batteries like this. Infact several people have said the type I got are usually pretty good, so I'm at a loss. It looks like the only thing is to charge them to 100% every single day. I'll buy lithium if I have to get another set - one battery at a grand for 200ah that you can actually use.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

They never went below 60%, yet one night after a good 100% charge

 

This raises several questions in my mind.

1) How are you charging to 100% with just an ordinary alternator? This takes HOURS on end.

2) How are you measuring 100%? Not by what the SG is telling you I hope.

3) This seems horribly similar to the death of my own battery bank when I too thought I was charging to 100%, but wasn't. 

4) Have you checked the calibration of your Smartgauge? If so, how did you check it? 

5) Or are you using an ammeter to see when 100% is being approached?

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

Yes Mike, I replaced the whole bank. I did check the four I took out, two didn't seem too bad, two did. That got me wondering about how I have the bank wired, as the new set seem to be dying also, though I can't tell if its two or all four because access is dreadful.

I take the point about the alternator - I don't expect to get 175a at tickover, and I realise that the batteries will only take what they will take, but bearing in mind it's a new canaline engine that came set up with the alternators, I would have to trust that the chaps there knew what they were doing and specified something that was fit for its intended purpose.

Yes croftie, that's about the size of it. The voltage readings on the sg concur with its charge approximations, it's another disaster. Hence this thread, trying to think of other possible causes (bank wiring) etc. They never went below 60%, yet one night after a good 100% charge they dropped off rather a lot - can't remember the exact figure now - and have rapidly gone down from there. Hence I'm trying the desulfator as a last resort because obviously I cant keep going through batteries like this. Infact several people have said the type I got are usually pretty good, so I'm at a loss. It looks like the only thing is to charge them to 100% every single day. I'll buy lithium if I have to get another set - one battery at a grand for 200ah that you can actually use.

Johny, we are now at post 230 on this thread and you are still trying to work out what is wrong. Unless something else has happend since the first page, go back and look at the first 4 or 5 responses. Wotever said

As others have pointed out, you are chronically under-charging and will kill your new batts in very little time.

You cannot charge for a couple of hours to get to 80% and hope everything is ok. You are killing your batteries in a very short time. Look at charging properly. 2 hours a day in winter is not enough.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Dr Bob

[MtB]

6) What voltage are you charging at if relying on reading tail current?

Hey Dr Bob interrupted!!

[nicknorman]

4 hours ago, mchancox said:

There are a wide range of enhanced charging systems available. Have a look at sterling power products A to B charger. 

Did you replace the whole bank or just the ones that were dropping off?

Have a look through this too. It’s useful to understand alternators. Just because you have 175A you might not necessarily be getting a decent charge current. Depends on rotation speed. 

 

 

But that’s just mr sterling trying to sell you his expensive gadgets. For older engines it has some truth but modern engines with 175A alternators have them pullied appropriately so they can make full current and not much above idle. For example our Beta 43 idles at 850 and can make 175A at 950 engine rpm. We normally cruise at 1300.

[Keeping Up]

As an indication of how far from ideal is a 2-hour per day charging routine, my typical weekly routine from a Beta 43 charging towards 14.8v with a 175 amp alternator is:

• 2 days for 4 hours
• 1 day for 6 hours
• 2 days for 4 hours
• 1 day for 6 hours
• 1 day for 8 hours

 

That makes one whole week, then it gets repeated for every subsequent week. If on any day the charging current has not fallen to below 1% of the battery bank capacity, the above time is extended. Typically the SoC at the start of charging is in the range 60%-70%. To me this looks like a good regime; yet this summer a set of super-cheap batteries lasted only just over a month and the replacement (slightly better) set has now given 3 months of service yet its capacity is already down by about one third.

I am now wondering about a change of regime. On the 2 days that were previously subject to 4 hours of charging each day, ie a total of 8 hours of diesel being used over the 2 days, I have been contemplating allocating the 8 hours as 2 hours on the first day (probably reaching 90% SoC) and then 6 hours on the following day thus holding the batteries at a high voltage, low current, high SoC condition for longer on those days. I wonder, would this help? Or even doing 1 hour and 7 hours.

Clearly a longer time holding at a high-voltage low-current state could be good, but on the other hand I have observed that batteries seem to show a sort of memory effect somewhat similar to the old NiCd cells which disliked it if you ever stopped charging before they were completely full. With lead-acid cells I have noticed that if on one day you only part-charge them, then the next day the charging current reduces drastically when you pass the point at which you stopped the day before so that it is far harder to get more charge into them, which could negate the advantages or even make things worse. For example with with the Varta batteries that I had previously, whenever you stopped charging prematurely, it was almost impossible to get any more charge into them beyond that level unless you used a ridiculously high voltage (typically 16.5v), and the steady loss of capacity was clearly seen on the meters day by day.

So what do people reckon would be the best charging routine, based on this info?

 

[Richard10002]

How do you get the charge current to 16.5A?

[Keeping Up]

2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

How do you get the charge current to 16.5A?

If you mean, how do I get the charge voltage to 16.5v , I have a bench power supply which I can run from the inverter powered by 2 of the batteries to equalise the other 2. Then swap them over. But I am wary of doing that with my existing bank of sealed batteries.

[Richard10002]

1 minute ago, Keeping Up said:

If you mean, how do I get the charge voltage to 16.5v , I have a bench power supply which I can run from the inverter powered by 2 of the batteries to equalise the other 2. Then swap them over. But I am wary of doing that with my existing bank of sealed batteries.

I dont really know what a bench power supply is, but I dont have one, nor the space, so it's not an option. I think it would be handy with Trojans.

[WotEver]

8 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

I have observed that batteries seem to show a sort of memory effect somewhat similar to the old NiCd cells which disliked it if you ever stopped charging before they were completely full.

I believe that what you’re seeing is just how quickly a battery can sulphate. Left for a couple of days at say 80% that other 20% is beginning to harden its sulphate. 

Only you can determine how you might be able to improve your charging regime, whilst bearing in mind that every day the Batteries sit at less than 100% SoC is a day for them to accumulate sulphation and lose capacity. 

The simple and glib answer is “charge to 100% every day” but obviously that’s not practical so you have to compromise, acknowledging that the battery life will be shortened due to that compromise. 

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, nicknorman said:

But that’s just mr sterling trying to sell you his expensive gadgets. For older engines it has some truth but modern engines with 175A alternators have them pullied appropriately so they can make full current and not much above idle. For example our Beta 43 idles at 850 and can make 175A at 950 engine rpm. We normally cruise at 1300.

Very true....and right about our old engine (2002 Beta 43) which never got to 14volts - 90/45A alternators (and my previous 2005 Volvo penta). The Stirling AtoB sorted it no problem but it does switch into float too soon just like my Victron. Full charge at Rickover as well.

edit....even tickover

Edited November 11, 2017 by Dr Bob

[nicknorman]

9 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

As an indication of how far from ideal is a 2-hour per day charging routine, my typical weekly routine from a Beta 43 charging towards 14.8v with a 175 amp alternator is:

• 2 days for 4 hours
• 1 day for 6 hours
• 2 days for 4 hours
• 1 day for 6 hours
• 1 day for 8 hours

 

That makes one whole week, then it gets repeated for every subsequent week. If on any day the charging current has not fallen to below 1% of the battery bank capacity, the above time is extended. Typically the SoC at the start of charging is in the range 60%-70%. To me this looks like a good regime; yet this summer a set of super-cheap batteries lasted only just over a month and the replacement (slightly better) set has now given 3 months of service yet its capacity is already down by about one third.

I am now wondering about a change of regime. On the 2 days that were previously subject to 4 hours of charging each day, ie a total of 8 hours of diesel being used over the 2 days, I have been contemplating allocating the 8 hours as 2 hours on the first day (probably reaching 90% SoC) and then 6 hours on the following day thus holding the batteries at a high voltage, low current, high SoC condition for longer on those days. I wonder, would this help? Or even doing 1 hour and 7 hours.

Clearly a longer time holding at a high-voltage low-current state could be good, but on the other hand I have observed that batteries seem to show a sort of memory effect somewhat similar to the old NiCd cells which disliked it if you ever stopped charging before they were completely full. With lead-acid cells I have noticed that if on one day you only part-charge them, then the next day the charging current reduces drastically when you pass the point at which you stopped the day before so that it is far harder to get more charge into them, which could negate the advantages or even make things worse. For example with with the Varta batteries that I had previously, whenever you stopped charging prematurely, it was almost impossible to get any more charge into them beyond that level unless you used a ridiculously high voltage (typically 16.5v), and the steady loss of capacity was clearly seen on the meters day by day.

So what do people reckon would be the best charging routine, based on this info?

 

Well in my opinion this is just another indictment of the suitability of rebadged starter batteries for leisure use. I suggest the answer is to get proper batteries!

can you get the lids off at all? If so it would be interesting to know the sg when the batteries are ostensibly fully charged.

when Jeff was on the boat in Hungerford for 5 days, he never took the batteries (T105s) to 100%, mostly just an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening to get up to around 90% (175A alternator). But no lasting effects. Ok I know that was just one short period but there wasn’t a sense that any sulphation had set in when I got back to the boat.

[alan_fincher]

On 10/25/2017 at 19:02, nicknorman said:

We were out for 7 weeks in the summer. We used them then. We are currently out for 2 weeks, I’m not sitting here in the dark! As well as lighting we use them for the HD recording sat box, telly, fridge, Nespresso machine, toaster, electric kettle, fan oven (gas flame, electric fan), Dyson, numerous chargers for 2x iPhones 2x iPads, 2 x laptops, electric blanket (in the coldest weather) as well as the usual pumps. But yes, apart from that we don’t use them.

Well to be strictly accurate for much of what you list, isn't it the butler actually using them?

[Johny London]

14 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Johny, we are now at post 230 on this thread and you are still trying to work out what is wrong. Unless something else has happend since the first page, go back and look at the first 4 or 5 responses. Wotever said

As others have pointed out, you are chronically under-charging and will kill your new batts in very little time.

You cannot charge for a couple of hours to get to 80% and hope everything is ok. You are killing your batteries in a very short time. Look at charging properly. 2 hours a day in winter is not enough.

I can only appologise for bringing up the whole  sorry subject. It seems my inability to accept the dreadfully inadequate performance of the leisure batteries is matched only by... their dreadful performance. I simply wasn't aware that they needed to charge to 100% every single time. As many other comments on the forum indicate that lots of people don't do that and seem to manage, I started trying to figure if something else was going on.

And - relying on the smartgauge that 100% meant I could stop charging That's going in the bin.

After my next experiment with the desulfator (should at least be interesting) I intend to go lithium. I can't understand why anyone would spend good money on lead acid - 440a/h that you can only use 180a/h of (40%) might as well have 1x200ah lithium and be able to use it. Also - the massive amount of time energy and cost trying to pump the last few amps into the lead acids, I'm sure I'd save back on diesel and engine wear in no time at all. Just look at keeping up's regime - and still not sufficient! He could save time by running the engine all the while he's actually using the electric and not bothering with any batteries. (I'm half joking).

I just wish I'd specified a lithium from new - instead of the four vetus things that cost nearly as much.

I think that one of the problems in boat world is similar to what you find in the trades sometimes as in "it's always been done this way so why change?"

But thank you to everyone who's offered advice.

[smileypete]

12 hours ago, Keeping Up said:

As an indication of how far from ideal is a 2-hour per day charging routine, my typical weekly routine from a Beta 43 charging towards 14.8v with a 175 amp alternator is:

• 2 days for 4 hours
• 1 day for 6 hours
• 2 days for 4 hours
• 1 day for 6 hours
• 1 day for 8 hours

 

That makes one whole week, then it gets repeated for every subsequent week. If on any day the charging current has not fallen to below 1% of the battery bank capacity, the above time is extended. Typically the SoC at the start of charging is in the range 60%-70%. To me this looks like a good regime; yet this summer a set of super-cheap batteries lasted only just over a month and the replacement (slightly better) set has now given 3 months of service yet its capacity is already down by about one third.

I am now wondering about a change of regime. On the 2 days that were previously subject to 4 hours of charging each day, ie a total of 8 hours of diesel being used over the 2 days, I have been contemplating allocating the 8 hours as 2 hours on the first day (probably reaching 90% SoC) and then 6 hours on the following day thus holding the batteries at a high voltage, low current, high SoC condition for longer on those days. I wonder, would this help? Or even doing 1 hour and 7 hours.

Clearly a longer time holding at a high-voltage low-current state could be good, but on the other hand I have observed that batteries seem to show a sort of memory effect somewhat similar to the old NiCd cells which disliked it if you ever stopped charging before they were completely full. With lead-acid cells I have noticed that if on one day you only part-charge them, then the next day the charging current reduces drastically when you pass the point at which you stopped the day before so that it is far harder to get more charge into them, which could negate the advantages or even make things worse. For example with with the Varta batteries that I had previously, whenever you stopped charging prematurely, it was almost impossible to get any more charge into them beyond that level unless you used a ridiculously high voltage (typically 16.5v), and the steady loss of capacity was clearly seen on the meters day by day.

So what do people reckon would be the best charging routine, based on this info?

 

Out of interest what's the make/type/model/capacity of the current set?

As Nick says if you can safely remove the batt fillers and check the SGs then they may be rather low or all over the place.

If part of the bank can be isolated, one way to safely limit EQ current is use a small solar panel laid flat. Or use a current limiting DC boost converter, but you don't want the output voltage to start or pull below the input voltage. It's only the EQ current that causes water loss.

Maybe part of the problem is the boat market is a tiny subset of the european leisure market (motorhomes etc) so leisure batts that work fine for them might fail miserably on boats.

 

But I still think:

Plan A for most (95%?) of boaters would be decent brand leisure batts.

Plan B would be Trojans but only if they can be provided with the correct charge and EQ voltages, and required maintenance and monitoring. I expect this needs a genuine long term interest, hmmm...

Plan C is to use a less common battery make/type/chemistry etc, but then you may be the guinea pig on that one.

Edited November 11, 2017 by smileypete

[RLWP]

4 minutes ago, Johny London said:

the massive amount of time energy and cost trying to pump the last few amps into the lead acids,

You are missing something fundamental. It takes bloody ages to put the last few 'amps' into any battery - even lithium ones.

It's like filling a canal lock. It's really quick to fill the bottom 75% because the water levels are so different. You wait ages for the last inch to fill because the water levels are nearly the same.

It is exactly the same with batteries, pushing the last 10% into them gets hard because your alternator is banging out nearly the same voltage as the batteries, with the difference getting smaller all the time

Richard

[MtB]

On 11/11/2017 at 10:16, RLWP said:

You are missing something fundamental. It takes bloody ages to put the last few 'amps' into any battery - even lithium ones.

 

But lithiums don't sulphate up like LA cells if you persistently only charge them to 90%

Or DO they?!

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, RLWP said:

It's like filling a canal lock. It's really quick to fill the bottom 75% because the water levels are so different. You wait ages for the last inch to fill because the water levels are nearly the same.

It is exactly the same with batteries, pushing the last 10% into them gets hard because your alternator is banging out nearly the same voltage as the batteries, with the difference getting smaller all the time

Excellent analogy and one that should be a compulsory read before any new member is allowed to post (like 'ticking' that you have read the T&Cs)

Edited November 11, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

On 11/11/2017 at 10:06, Johny London said:

I can only appologise for bringing up the whole  sorry subject. It seems my inability to accept the dreadfully inadequate performance of the leisure batteries is matched only by... their dreadful performance. I simply wasn't aware that they needed to charge to 100% every single time. As many other comments on the forum indicate that lots of people don't do that and seem to manage, I started trying to figure if something else was going on.

And - relying on the smartgauge that 100% meant I could stop charging That's going in the bin.

After my next experiment with the desulfator (should at least be interesting) I intend to go lithium. I can't understand why anyone would spend good money on lead acid - 440a/h that you can only use 180a/h of (40%) might as well have 1x200ah lithium and be able to use it. Also - the massive amount of time energy and cost trying to pump the last few amps into the lead acids, I'm sure I'd save back on diesel and engine wear in no time at all. Just look at keeping up's regime - and still not sufficient! He could save time by running the engine all the while he's actually using the electric and not bothering with any batteries. (I'm half joking).

I just wish I'd specified a lithium from new - instead of the four vetus things that cost nearly as much.

I think that one of the problems in boat world is similar to what you find in the trades sometimes as in "it's always been done this way so why change?"

But thank you to everyone who's offered advice.

 

Please don't apologise for the starting the thread. Lots of people have learned lots from it.

Greenied because you have articulated my own thoughts and experiences with batteries so well. The odd thing is how some people seem to get away with the 'one hour a day plus fully charge at weekends', and others like you, me and Keeping Up don't. 

I find however, that my irrecoverably sulphated Trojanoids still last me a day, and given we have to charge daily anyway, why would I change them? A new set has to be charged daily too in order to avoid wrecking them.

Lithiums do seem a Good Idea but they need treating with respect. They can't be paralleled up like LA batteries or the crucial 'cell balancing' can't happen. You have to buy the right size single battery AIUI. And if the worst happens and one self combusts, the heat will melt steel so your boat sinks... but lets look on the bright side, the electronics are there to stop that!

 

On 11/11/2017 at 10:06, Johny London said:

And - relying on the smartgauge that 100% meant I could stop charging That's going in the bin.

 

Don't throw it in the bin, Rusty69 will give you a tenner for it. He says he needs another door stop. 

[Johny London]

Well, the water will put the fire out then!

I thought you can parallel them, and I also think they charge a lot quicker. It's largely new territory, but it shouldn't be. Doubtless with electric cars and power walls, we will eventually reap the technological benefits, but yes being a minority thing it will take time to be common on boats.

[WotEver]

42 minutes ago, Johny London said:

And - relying on the smartgauge that 100% meant I could stop charging That's going in the bin.

Yeah, I recently bought a carpet cleaner. It does a rubbish job of cleaning the windows so I’m throwing it in the bin...