New batteries - problem

[smileypete]

11 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Second thing that emerged was discovering my SG over-reads the battery voltage by about 0.4v. This meant that I was actually probably only ever charging to about 80%. By this time four months had slipped by and the weather was freezing for weeks on end (as were my batteries) and my attempts at desulphating them were spectacularly ineffective. 

Come the summer and daily desulphating by the solar for six months made no difference either. But to root cause was undercharging through combination of ignorance and a faulty SmartGauge.

Without some numbers on the desulphating it's hard to judge one way or the other.

Usually when people lose interest they do or say whatever to justify their take on it, which I can understand.

Did you buy some el cheapos in the end, if so how are they going?

[mrsmelly]

21 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Maybe...

But if they're only being taken down about 10% then fully charged, that's the equivalent of 70 'normal' discharge cycles.

If you were not heavily relying on the Travelpower then batt life would be quite different, unless you had a boatful of them...

They are usualy 12.5 in a morning but sometimes down as low as 12.2 but of course they do deteriorate a mite each day I suppose and these are not now as good as they were five months ago. I suppose its a bit like how long is a piece of string or how long does a gas bottle last you its an impossible one to answer as there are far too many variables. If you don't use the gas it will last forever but if you have a gas fridge and gas heating all winter then two bottles a week if you see what I mean.

[MtB]

On 26/10/2017 at 09:26, smileypete said:

Without some numbers on the desulphating it's hard to judge one way or the other.

Usually when people lose interest they do or say whatever to justify their take on it, which I can understand.

Did you buy some el cheapos in the end, if so how are they going?

 

I've posted the specific gravities on here on several occasions discussing their failure to desulphate. Is that what you mean by 'the numbers'?

I still have the reduced capacity Trojanoids installed. No need to change them as the solar has had them charged to 120% all summer. Now the solar stopping working is impacting so running the whispergen at night is helping. But it's dtill not cooling properly and finding the time to address it is difficult as I'm working 26 hours a day at the moment.

[dmr]

1 hour ago, Dave_P said:

You've got a deal.  Let me know when you're back down my way.    Just to check:  I would connect this directly to my batteries and plug it into my generator or shoreline hook-up and let it run for around 6 hours?  And do this, maybe monthly?

Yes,

You will need to measure the exact voltage before we decide how often, and we need to know more about your solar and your charging regime. I would think half hour of 15 volts every time you get to a full charge would be even better, especially in winter.

If you look at the manufacturers ideal charging spec for Trojans and Crown etc they suggest a little blast of high voltage at the end of every charge, though I suspect almost nobody ever does that.

...............Dave

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I've posted the specific gravities on here on several occasions discussing their failure to desulphate. Is that what you mean by 'the numbers'?

I do remember seeing some posted somewhere...

Now say for instance person A has found they're unable to desulphate their batts successfully, but person B has found they can recover most of the capacity.

Without any decent numbers from both people, there's absolutely no way of telling what person B has been doing which makes the difference between success and failure.

It's basic science innit?

[MtB]

On 26/10/2017 at 11:31, smileypete said:

I do remember seeing some posted somewhere...

Now say for instance person A has found they're unable to desulphate their batts successfully, but person B has found they can recover most of the capacity.

Without any decent numbers from both people, there's absolutely no way of telling what person B has been doing which makes the difference between success and failure.

It's basic science innit?

 

Yes but what 'numbers' are you asking for?

[smileypete]

40 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes but what 'numbers' are you asking for?

SGs of fully charged batts before desulphation attempts

SGs of fully charged batts after desulphation attempts (any improvement?)

Charge voltage and typical tail current before each equalisation charge  (ie are the batts considered to be fully charged?)

EQ voltage, EQ time, and typical tail current at the end of each equalisation charge  (how hard and for how long)

How many EQ cycles (eg daily? weekly?) over what interval (weeks, months?)

Time of year (approx temperature) is also handy as cold temps need higher voltages.

 

Trouble is, desulphating may require a step change in interest to even fully charging the batts and avoiding sulphation in the first place....

Edited October 26, 2017 by smileypete

[dmr]

Trojan marketing make a big deal about the formulation of the paste used in their batteries, this is another possible significant factor, maybe some pastes form a "harder" sulphation more quickly, or bigger impenetrable lumps (crystals?) of it?

.............Dave

[Dave_P]

2 hours ago, dmr said:

Yes,

You will need to measure the exact voltage before we decide how often, and we need to know more about your solar and your charging regime. I would think half hour of 15 volts every time you get to a full charge would be even better, especially in winter.

If you look at the manufacturers ideal charging spec for Trojans and Crown etc they suggest a little blast of high voltage at the end of every charge, though I suspect almost nobody ever does that.

...............Dave

3 x 175 flat mounted panels.  Still putting out a reasonable amount on sunny days.  As for charging regimes, well it varies (doesn't everyone's?).  I could be on my mooring with the battery charger on 24/7.  When off my mooring I rely on solar with occasional genny running and engine running (for moving) for around 8 months of the year.  In winter I generally try to charge whenever my resting voltage is getting close to 12.2v.  Occasionally  fail and and I go too low.  At the moment I'm eeking along with knackered batteries as I'll be back on my mooring in about 3 weeks and then wont move much until spring.  I went to bed last night with batts on 12.5v.  Woke up to them on 11.5  (fridge on low and central heating pump).  Then scooted off to work.  I'll be home around 4.30 and will charge for about 3 hours to try and get them up a bit.  Then a long charge tomorrow.

[WotEver]

25 minutes ago, dmr said:

Trojan marketing make a big deal about the formulation of the paste used in their batteries, this is another possible significant factor, maybe some pastes form a "harder" sulphation more quickly, or bigger impenetrable lumps (crystals?) of it?

.............Dave

That sounds feasible. Most manufacturers make a big deal about ‘their’ construction techniques but perhaps Trojan have a right to

[dmr]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

That sounds feasible. Most manufacturers make a big deal about ‘their’ construction techniques but perhaps Trojan have a right to

A while ago somebody on this forum made a lovely put down comment along the lines of "yes, it sound really good in the adverts"

The paste or other "forming" of the working surfaces of the plates looks to me like a potentially important battery feature and is rarely mentioned.

................Dave

30 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

3 x 175 flat mounted panels.  Still putting out a reasonable amount on sunny days.  As for charging regimes, well it varies (doesn't everyone's?).  I could be on my mooring with the battery charger on 24/7.  When off my mooring I rely on solar with occasional genny running and engine running (for moving) for around 8 months of the year.  In winter I generally try to charge whenever my resting voltage is getting close to 12.2v.  Occasionally  fail and and I go too low.  At the moment I'm eeking along with knackered batteries as I'll be back on my mooring in about 3 weeks and then wont move much until spring.  I went to bed last night with batts on 12.5v.  Woke up to them on 11.5  (fridge on low and central heating pump).  Then scooted off to work.  I'll be home around 4.30 and will charge for about 3 hours to try and get them up a bit.  Then a long charge tomorrow.

With your solar and periodic use of a home mooring/shoreline I am a bit surprised that you are getting problems. Tell me again....what is your measured charging voltage from solar, alternator and charger???

I suspect upping these a bit will be a huge help.

............Dave

[Dave_P]

14 minutes ago, dmr said:

A while ago somebody on this forum made a lovely put down comment along the lines of "yes, it sound really good in the adverts"

The paste or other "forming" of the working surfaces of the plates looks to me like a potentially important battery feature and is rarely mentioned.

................Dave

With your solar and periodic use of a home mooring/shoreline I am a bit surprised that you are getting problems. Tell me again....what is your measured charging voltage from solar, alternator and charger???

I suspect upping these a bit will be a huge help.

............Dave

I've never measured any of those things.  I don't think I'm having any problems, I'm just looking to maximise the life of my batteries.

[Dave_P]

I joined this thread following this comment "The key thing here is really really getting to 100% and this will need a good charging voltage like 14.8, or even 15 in winter, or maybe even a "mini equalisation"."

My interest is about how to achieve that charging voltage.  Your half-price charger sounds ideal.

 

[dmr]

6 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

I joined this thread following this comment "The key thing here is really really getting to 100% and this will need a good charging voltage like 14.8, or even 15 in winter, or maybe even a "mini equalisation"."

My interest is about how to achieve that charging voltage.  Your half-price charger sounds ideal.

 

Get that Adverc sorted out then you can at least get a good charging voltage when you cruise. If you really don't intend to do this then remove it and put it on eBay, they go for good money.

..............Dave

[smileypete]

1 hour ago, Dave_P said:

I joined this thread following this comment "The key thing here is really really getting to 100% and this will need a good charging voltage like 14.8, or even 15 in winter, or maybe even a "mini equalisation"."

My interest is about how to achieve that charging voltage.  Your half-price charger sounds ideal.

 

What batts do you have?

If they're doing OK, then just keep on doing what you're doing, of course that would include the usual maintenance if they're not sealed.

Trouble is with these topics is that people read some advice that's specific to one person and may misapply it to themselves, with possibly disastrous results.

Edited October 26, 2017 by smileypete

[Tom and Bex]

We bought some cheapo sealed batteries in May, badged as 135ah but sceptical of that as exactly same size, style and weight as every other 110ah sealed battery. Labelled and marketed as "sealed calcium" batteries. 

Started having problems with them after 2-3 month's despite good solar charging through the summer. Guess they were down to significantly less than 50% original capacity (whatever that actually was). Solar controller and charger both set to sealed batteries charging at 14.4v as advised by supplier, alternator charging at approx 14.2v. 

Have since installed alternator controller, and changed solar settings so both now charge at 14.8v, and they now get at least weekly charge at 15.1v via generator and sterling charger. This had made a very significant difference and now getting much better performance from them. 

As mentioned by someone earlier, I think the added calcium in newer batteries mean they need a higher charging voltage that is not being recommended by suppliers who still stick with 14.4v max. Even when charging at 15.1v, I can still get to a tail current of 3A or less. 

Tom

[dmr]

8 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

We bought some cheapo sealed batteries in May, badged as 135ah but sceptical of that as exactly same size, style and weight as every other 110ah sealed battery. Labelled and marketed as "sealed calcium" batteries. 

Started having problems with them after 2-3 month's despite good solar charging through the summer. Guess they were down to significantly less than 50% original capacity (whatever that actually was). Solar controller and charger both set to sealed batteries charging at 14.4v as advised by supplier, alternator charging at approx 14.2v. 

Have since installed alternator controller, and changed solar settings so both now charge at 14.8v, and they now get at least weekly charge at 15.1v via generator and sterling charger. This had made a very significant difference and now getting much better performance from them. 

As mentioned by someone earlier, I think the added calcium in newer batteries mean they need a higher charging voltage that is not being recommended by suppliers who still stick with 14.4v max. Even when charging at 15.1v, I can still get to a tail current of 3A or less. 

Tom

Charging sealed batteries at these high voltages is risky because if you loose water then its not east to top them up. As yours are already wrecked then you have little to loose but it would be really good if you could share what you learn with this good forum.

After a few weeks of high voltage charging, or just before you throw the batteries away, would it be possible to prise open the top and check the water level? I believe that most sealed batteries do have access, its just not as user-friendly as that on non sealed batteries.

............Dave

[Johny London]

I've been trying to figure out if there is anything else that could be causing me problems - and I have realised that although when I fitted the inverter, I was careful to take off two supply points from the batteries (one at each end of the +'ve on my bank of 4x110ah) the boat builder was less fussy when wiring for the 12v. I have only a single take off on the second (or third) battery (depending which way you count from but electrically it's the same).

I'd been thinking about why when I took off the old set, two came back up and two didn't (they have condition indicators but I metered them out also).

Could this way of being wired be causing one or two of the batteries to fail, due to getting a tad more discharged or a tad less recharged? I've no means of applying an equalising charge.

[WotEver]

The short answer is yes. Read this:

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

[Johny London]

So, I need to go and look at how the -ve's are wired.

[WotEver]

41 minutes ago, Johny London said:

So, I need to go and look at how the -ve's are wired.

And the +ves 

[Johny London]

I've checked it all out and made a drawing of what I have, as you can see it is far from satisfactory.

Boat Battery wiring.bmp

I wonder, could this be causing the disastrous results I've been having with batteries? According to the Smartgauge article if one battery is providing twice as much power as its opposite, then when I have charged to 100%, one or two batteries are well below that and would drag the others down? Aside from becoming knackered quickly. I have said on a number of occassions that soc seem to be eratic - both with this bank and the last,

I think there are one or two ways I could modify the wiring (given existing lengths of connecting leads) or maybe get a couple new leads made up to improve things with, once I decide on a strategy.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Johny London

[smileypete]

17 hours ago, Johny London said:

I've checked it all out and made a drawing of what I have, as you can see it is far from satisfactory.

Boat Battery wiring.bmp

I wonder, could this be causing the disastrous results I've been having with batteries? According to the Smartgauge article if one battery is providing twice as much power as its opposite, then when I have charged to 100%, one or two batteries are well below that and would drag the others down? Aside from becoming knackered quickly. I have said on a number of occassions that soc seem to be eratic - both with this bank and the last,

I think there are one or two ways I could modify the wiring (given existing lengths of connecting leads) or maybe get a couple new leads made up to improve things with, once I decide on a strategy.

Unless the batt wires are rather thin or with poorly crimped ends, I doubt it will be the bulk of the problem. (The above website while mostly good can be a bit misleading in places.)

With new batts a clamp meter will easily tell how well the connections are balanced or not, see the other topic for a recommendation.

Edited November 8, 2017 by smileypete

[WotEver]

20 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Unless the batt wires are rather thin or with poorly crimped ends, I doubt it will be the bulk of the problem. (The above website while mostly good can be a bit misleading in places.)

With new batts a clamp meter will easily tell how well the connections are balanced or not, see the other topic for a recommendation.

I agree with the second paragraph, which will show the accuracy of the first paragraph. I’m ready to bet that with a heavy load on the inverter the bottom battery in that diagram will be contributing a lot more than its fair share of the current, but let’s wait and see. 

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

I agree with the second paragraph, which will show the accuracy of the first paragraph. I’m ready to bet that with a heavy load on the inverter the bottom battery in that diagram will be contributing a lot more than its fair share of the current, but let’s wait and see. 

It will depend on the resistance of the interconnects, ie their thickness and cleanliness and tightness of connections.