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New batteries - problem


Johny London

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I had hoped to resolve this by myself - knowing how heated battery discussions can become.

I fitted new batteries a few weeks ago, limited access made it near impossible but in the end I was satisfied that all connections were good. What a joy - leaving the fridge on at night means I can buy stuff to keep in it! And the lights don't dim when I give something a quick blast in the microwave :)

Anyway, I'm already seeing signs of trouble. My regime has been to never let them go below 60% / 12.2v, usually recharging much sooner. I charge up to at least 80%, usually 90% or more. Even then I'm running the engine a lot less than I used to - 2 hrs a day and a longer one every week or so, roughly.

The last time I got to 100% I left the engine running for another hour for a "really good" charge. Lately I have seen the charge% dropping off quickly, but also some very erratic readings from the smartgauge. For example, I woke today to find the batteries at 12.15v / 57% (I always check both readings as it gives me a better picture of what is going on - I know if the fridge is running, or other equipment to make allowances  on the expected voltage). Anyway, a quick 1 hr charge to get me through to the evening and the batteries read something like12.6v/63%. A bit later by themselves they have gone up tp 13.15v/67%. Now at 12.9v/69%.

I do have solar panels and I know they can affect the voltage reading but there is no sun and they are basically not doing anything today. I've checked the smartgauge wiring for loose connections, seems ok. I've checked all the battery wiring, seems ok. I have observed a very slight build around one or two places on the posts - just in the gaps between post and fitting. I had to take out the smartgauge fuses to inspect the crimps etc so it might be confused now.

When I enquired about the snake oil - sorry battery desulfator, the reply I got was quite helpful and suggested that the batteries (my old set) may not be suffering from sulphation but that something else may be going on. Well, I'm hearing those words in my head now - overcharging? The batteries never read more than 14.4v with engine running, but I wonder if it is worth disconnecting the alternator to see what it is really putting out? Or perhaps there are other suggestions.

Both my previous and current batteries are 4x110ah sealed. This is another reason why I want to get a generator - to use the good charger on the Victron.

thank you guys

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Nothing is for nothing. Buying a standalone gennie is a fine idea it will definitely save wear and tear on your propulsion engine but will cost you many thousands to install a good one, in fact just as many as replacing your propulsion engine more often due to wear. You will also use fuel at twice the rate if you use both together. As for batteries they need charging to full capacity EVERY day or as near as dammit or you will trash them in weeks not months. Its pointless charging batteries and then taking a reading from them it will be wrong, if you don't touch them for 24 hours it will be more accurate which you cannot do if a daily user. There are many permutations of fuel useage/engine wear/gennie costs/genie wear charging times/battery wear etc etc etc but in reality lectric on a boat will cost you a considerable amount whichever way you do it.

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1 hour ago, Johny London said:

I'm running the engine a lot less than I used to - 2 hrs a day and a longer one every week or so, roughly.

Sorry but that’s nowhere near enough. 

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

a quick 1 hr charge to get me through to the evening

No.... a 1 hr charge will put bugger all back into the batteries. 

1 hour ago, Johny London said:

What a joy - leaving the fridge on at night means I can buy stuff to keep in it! And the lights don't dim when I give something a quick blast in the microwave :)

But that power MUST be replaced the following day. Batteries don’t make power, they simply store what YOU make. 

As others have pointed out, you are chronically under-charging and will kill your new batts in very little time. 

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15 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

so in short nothing is for free in terms of money, time and effort, making batteries last requires a hefty investment on a personal level.

Phil 

Not only on a personal level its a fine balance between engine wear/fuel costs and simply replacing battery bank at regular intervals, I cant be arsed to work it out but either way it costs plenty.

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5 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

A quick blast of the microwave won't be doing your dying batteries any favours. They draw a lot of power.

Fine if you are hooked up to shore power but not recommended to run it from your batteries.

Yes I had also noticed that. Problem is these days since inverters many peeps just assume that because they can use stuff thro the inverter it cant be any problem for the batteries like for instance 3 minutes only boiling a kettle etc etc :ninja:

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15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes I had also noticed that. Problem is these days since inverters many peeps just assume that because they can use stuff thro the inverter it cant be any problem for the batteries like for instance 3 minutes only boiling a kettle etc etc :ninja:

It isn’t any problem for the batteries -provided you recharge them.

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28 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

A quick blast of the microwave won't be doing your dying batteries any favours. They draw a lot of power.

Fine if you are hooked up to shore power but not recommended to run it from your batteries.

As running a microwave for around 5 mins will only use around 10ah I wouldn’t say it was a lot of power and not worth just switching your genny/engine on for.

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Looks like I'm in the dog house again :( I'm sure I read somewhere on here that 80% was enough provided a weekly 100% was achieved. I'll go ahead with a generator then, it pains me to run the engine, servicing is so expensive.

I'm not as power hungry or mindless as people may think - I always do as many power tasks as possible while the engine is running, don't use a toaster or electric kettle. Microwave very rarely eg a tin of soup goes in a pot on the hob, not in a bowl in the microwave. I don't waste lights even though they are all led and I have tv normally only from 9-12midnight (unless I fall asleep in front of it!). The laptop I use off its own battery which I recharge in engine time, although if I am doing intensive internet research or something, sometimes I have to power it from the boat - what can you do. I use a raspberry pi with kodi and if I use my pvr box (humax dtr1000) I switch it on about 8pm and off at the end of the evening, or standby any time it's not being used. Infact, I cant really save any more power unless I get into completely doing without stuff. I do have a dishwasher and washing machine but always run the engine - ideally when cruising so the extra revs are not wasted. When I get a 12v fridge the inverter will go off at night - I've no idea really how much it self consumes and could be the best area to make a saving.

Hopefully a good few 100% charges will clear the sulfation.

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29 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I'm sure I read somewhere on here that 80% was enough provided a weekly 100% was achieved

 

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As a matter of interest, how long did your previous set last?

Did these fail quicker than the last ones?

Are you doing anything  different ?

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Well, the last ones, I was cruising all the time for the first few weeks so never had any issues, though I wasn't really monitoring the batteries tbh. Once I started leaving the boat and going back to the flat in London, then I began having problems. I tended to leave the batteries needing charge, thinking that in any case I'd have to run the engine for hot water when I got back to the boat. I think that was what killed them more than anything. But they carried on for a year holding perhaps a useable 1/10 their original capacity. A while ago they started just going out completely so I had to replace them.

This time I thought I had looked after the new ones. As I understood it, if one never goes below 12.2v/60% and doesn't leave them in that state (or worse) and with a periodic "good full recharge" (ie 100%) they should be ok. Now I'm hearing 100% must be achieved every day. Whatever next - take them out to the savoy? I'm quite miffed at the appalling inflexibility of the things.

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Couple of questions:

What make/brand were/are the old and new batts?

Do you have an ammeter to measure 'tail current'? If not a 'clamp ammeter' can do this, along with helping to confirm the connections aren't too unbalanced or a battery is faulty.

Edited by smileypete
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14 minutes ago, Johny London said:

Well, the last ones, I was cruising all the time for the first few weeks so never had any issues, though I wasn't really monitoring the batteries tbh. Once I started leaving the boat and going back to the flat in London, then I began having problems. I tended to leave the batteries needing charge, thinking that in any case I'd have to run the engine for hot water when I got back to the boat. I think that was what killed them more than anything. But they carried on for a year holding perhaps a useable 1/10 their original capacity. A while ago they started just going out completely so I had to replace them.

This time I thought I had looked after the new ones. As I understood it, if one never goes below 12.2v/60% and doesn't leave them in that state (or worse) and with a periodic "good full recharge" (ie 100%) they should be ok. Now I'm hearing 100% must be achieved every day. Whatever next - take them out to the savoy? I'm quite miffed at the appalling inflexibility of the things.

They are not inflexible. You just need to follow a set of pretty simple guidelines to get the best from them. Or budget on replacing them on a regular basis. Which looks in your case to be measured in months not years!

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We switched our 12v fridge off for a few days this week being away and did not turn it back on for a couple of days, after we returned to the boat.We have tiny energy needs outside the fridge couple of 12 v led lights and water pump, we have no tv etc etc etc. The voltages maintained with the fridge off evidences just how much they drag even new 6 months old batteries that have never gone below 12.4v open circuit . Our fridge is a recent shoreline installed with good ventilation, solar panel providing input in the summer, but that constant load seems to just tear into batteries. We have a batts on our camper in Australia, no solar panel single battery, it goes 4 days without input before the volts trip goes and that's set at 12.1 on load, charging off  the standard VW alternator. God help those with inverters and mains fridges, no wonder khan has problems with diesel smoke in London, it's all the boats keeping their fridges going at 5 degrees c

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No ammeter as yet - I've got a massive to do list. I bought the smartgauge as it seemed to be well regarded.

My old brand were Vetus, new ones are Lucas ultra deep cycle. It says they can be used to 70% discharge/500+ cycles, so it would seem they prefer to be charged more like every other day - or even every third. They are guaranteed for 3 years.

Roland - I think you are right about the fridge!

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I've never heard of anyone getting a battery replaced under warranty. I've had this boat 6 years and 4 boats over 35 years. Once tipped out 8 batteries after only 20 months on our old cabin boat, 4 year warranty pffff my rear end.

in the six years we are now on our 3rd  set batteries.( 220 amphrs) the boat is used only 5-6 months a year and has an adverc and 90w solar. We boat many hrs a day when here. Our batteries have survived been left with no charge ( or load) for 7 months ( someone switched of the solar whilst we were away in Australia working) but what killed the first set was forgetting to turn the fridge off when we had a 6 day emergency away from the boat in a dark Spring. I suspect that  one really deep discharge ( they were at 10.5 or so when we got back - that's why we fitted the solar) was sufficient . I confidently anticipate another 18 months out of the current set if I nanny them, wrap them up in cotton wool and say goodnight every time we use them. Alternatively I could just abuse them as 130 every two years is less than standing charges for electric in our house...

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Ah OK ta for that. So at least not some 'el cheapest' unrecogonisable brand.

It's well known that new batts need a few (or more?) cycles to get fully 'formed' and reach full capacity. Maybe as a result they take much longer to charge fully in the initial charge cycles?

So it may be best to play it safe with new batts and FULLY charge (tail current!) as often and as long as poss, then gradually increase charge intervals, carefully monitoring for a loss in capacity.

 

ETA: Conventional wisdom might be that plenty of solar helps get through the summer with an iffy set of batts which can be replaced in the autumn. However this means the new batts will immediately face less frequent and shorter charging from the get go...

Edited by smileypete
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2 minutes ago, smileypete said:

It's well known that new batts need a few (or more?) cycles to get fully 'formed' and reach full capacity

But after 5 months of daily cycling and still only showing between 50% & 67% of 'new capacity' (depending on what figures are used) something is not right.

I would still suggest that only charging to 80% has resulted in the loss of capacity.

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14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But after 5 months of daily cycling and still only showing between 50% & 67% of 'new capacity' (depending on what figures are used) something is not right.

I would still suggest that only charging to 80% has resulted in the loss of capacity.

Not yet been told how often the OP has been charging to '100%', and whether it really is a full charge, in the likely absence of an ammeter to read tail current.

Nevertheless that's by the by, the next step should be to ensure the batts are fully charged as often as practicable, at least to try and recover some capacity.

Careful and responsible charging to a higher voltage toward the end of charge may help to recover capacity (kinda eq charging), but without an ammeter to properly monitor charge current, it can't be safely done...

 

ETA: This prior lengthy topic may be worth a read:

https://canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/68885-still-eatng-batteries/&

 

Edited by smileypete
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7 hours ago, Johny London said:

Anyway, I'm already seeing signs of trouble. My regime has been to never let them go below 60% / 12.2v, usually recharging much sooner. I charge up to at least 80%, usually 90% or more. Even then I'm running the engine a lot less than I used to - 2 hrs a day and a longer one every week or so, roughly.

The last time I got to 100% I left the engine running for another hour for a "really good" charge. Lately I have seen the charge% dropping off quickly, but also some very erratic readings from the smartgauge. For example, I woke today to find the batteries at 12.15v / 57%

Can you expand on the timings?

Do you get down to 60% everyday?,(when you wake up?), Does it take you a couple of days to get down to 60%SoC, do you then run the engine for a ’couple of hours’ and get back to 80%+

Then by morning are you back to 60%?

How often do you get to 100% SoC ?

When did you last get to 100%SoC  ?

 

What is the ’process’ and when do you start/stop charging?

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