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inbuilt marine generators


Johny London

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42 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I think frahkn makes a good point. The canals are nice because they are quiet and peaceful. I suppose there is a balance that is right for each of us - between power/tech/convenience and the simple pleasures such as just sitting and taking it all in. That balance is different for us all. Personally, I'm surprised and a little disappointed by how much all the things we take for granted on land in the modern day, really do make life better. I suppose that's why every house dweller has them - I'm talking about internet, tv, washing machine, central heating, hot running water, fridge etc etc.

As my boat is a work in progress, I have experienced being without most things, and sadly I have to say life aboard really has got better each time I've added another facility, ie tv, internet, sink, stove, dishwasher even.

So, for me the way forward is to get my boat as well equipped as possible, whilst still being mindful to take the time to enjoy the essence of being on the water, and certainly not inconveniencing others. It is the 21st century and technology is working in our favour now. Led lights provide plenty of lighting at a tenth of the power of the old bulbs, small flatscreen tv's can take just 20watts or so, solar is getting better all the time and mobile phones and internet are available to all. Many of us can access iplayer and such. What a pity we are stuck with Victorian style energy storage ie lead acid batteries. That's going to be overcome one day but until then it seems the only answer is to have a ready and plentiful source of power generation.

Hence my desire for the perfect generator - silent and economical, and I can run what I like when I like, and not knacker my Victorian batteries :) or my engine :(

It amazes me that crt don't put electric posts on all the proper visitor moorings - they could clean up (literally and metaphorically) - charge double and we'd still be getting it cheap - plus no more pollution or noise (especially for neighbouring houses). It would make electrically propelled boats viable too :)

Anyway, I digress. I'd like to hear from anyone who has shoe horned a genny into their nb engine bay - looking again at mine, it seems I might just squeeze a paguro shaped on in next to the engine toward the bulkhead.

Batteries -

A simpler solution is knackering your batteries is to fit NiFe types. They are more expensive, their voltage swings around a bit but it's very hard to destroy them. Bimble solar now sell them. They're very popular in the States as part of a solar solution. My set is probably 30 years old and still going strong 

18 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

As somebody not well versed in engine-lore, why is it necessary to add an extra engine when there is one there already? 

In this case an engine mounted generator would be a sensible solution as the OP just doesn't have the room for a separate unit - but there's so many vibes about glazed bores that folks shy away from them.

If you run the unit  / charge batteries at -say- 1100 rpm then the glazed bores goes away, but I'm referring to modern engines - not old BMC types.

Again, for the OP a freshwater cooled engine with a waterlock exhaust takes less room than a large hospital silencer .

The cost of installing 'leccy supplies is quite horrendous, so the payback period is quite long. Out in the stick where some moorings are it's 'impossible'

Edited by OldGoat
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26 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

As somebody not well versed in engine-lore, why is it necessary to add an extra engine when there is one there already? 

It isn't, of course. Beta Marine's prop-gen and Travelpower both combine the functions in one motor. Ours does away with the propulsion motor all together. The electric generator has a secondary function of moving the boat - by electric motor.

Edited by Rick-n-Jo
auto mistake
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1 hour ago, system 4-50 said:

As somebody not well versed in engine-lore, why is it necessary to add an extra engine when there is one there already? 

The boat engine costs £5000 + to replace and most folk wouldn't want to attempt it themselves. A decent genny, although not cheap, means that you will never wear out your main engine, and a small genny can surely be swapped out far more easily when the time comes?

Also - it cost £80 for a small service on my engine (parts only) every 200hrs, and that comes around fast.

It seems ridiculous to run a large, expensive, relatively complicated thing just to spin an alternator, at least to my mind. Something a lot smaller that is built for the task seems more sensible. I'm not a fan of travel power for precisely this reason - you still end up putting hours on the main lump. What is the difference between travel power and just a normal 175a alternator plus inverter anyway?

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1 hour ago, Johny London said:

Hence my desire for the perfect generator - silent and economical, and I can run what I like when I like, and not knacker my Victorian batteries :) or my engine :(

 

If all you are after is to charge batteries then there is a couple of options.   The whispergen (the Stirling engine one from New Zealand that’s sadly no longer in production).    The other option is the Efoy fuel cell, but running costs are high.

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2 hours ago, Johny London said:

It amazes me that crt don't put electric posts on all the proper visitor moorings - they could clean up (literally and metaphorically) - charge double and we'd still be getting it cheap

A provider of electricity is (by law) not allowed to charge any more for it than they pay for it. They can only charge a 'reasonable' amount for the provision of the facility.

(We have a caravan park and come under the same regulations.)

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1 hour ago, Johny London said:

What is the difference between travel power and just a normal 175a alternator plus inverter anyway?

A hoooooooooooooooge difference. The travel power runs all heavy equipment from the one dose of fuel as the boat is moving along or indeed if you wish stationary. The major advantage is that at the same time the domestics alternator is also charging the domestic bank without huge losses to the inverter. I am on my second boat with travel power and its the most important bit of kit to us in our opinion of course. I expect this engine to do about 20k hours without problem anyway and as the boat is now ten years old and the engine has done less than 4k engine wear does not worry me. I skippered a boat with twin engines that have still never had their heads off and now approaching 40k hours. Its blowing a hooley here today and we have just run the engine for two hours in that time we did automatic washer and tumble dryer thro travelpower and vacuum and have switched off with virtualy fully charged batteries. If we had wanted we could have also cruised and done that as well. Brilliant bit of kit.

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53 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

One would hope they would be electricity posts.

Firstly, pedant alert.

Mr Smelly, interesting to hear your view, and obviously you have the right set up for you, fair play. All I would say is not to forget that if you have an alternator charging batteries and a travel power unit, you don't get the 12v for free - each load added will take as much diesel as it needs. Of course having said that you are doing two things on the same amount of engine wear, which is the important thing.

I was under the impression that an engine might last 10,000 hours, hopefully I'm massively wrong then. Also, as a liveaboard I have already put 1300hrs on it in a bit over a year, so at 4k in ten years you are a very light user.

Alan, I actually know about the electric resale law, but chose to ignore that fact on the basis that my idea was so good anyway :) Ok perhaps they charge you the unit price and you have an access card that you pay a fee for then, whatever, don't want to get bogged down in that side of it. The point being, think how many problems would be solved at a stroke with my idea.

Still up for anymore genny info - I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for whispergen as well as a few others, then if I see something one day, I can pounce. In the mean time a puttering suitcase I think.

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4 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

No, just correct use of English.

 

(And, just in case you are wondering, yes, I did earn a living as a teacher.)

 

Yes but who says which is 'correct'?

It's the 'descriptive' Vs. 'prescriptive' debate again. If people use language to successfully communicate and someone describes how they did it, that's the 'language is descriptive' arguement and "electric bollard" is fine innit. 

You are a using the prescriptive argument. 'Here are a set of rules I agree with and you are wrong to speak in ways that contravene those rules'. Isn't that right? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Johny London said:

Firstly, pedant alert.

Mr Smelly, interesting to hear your view, and obviously you have the right set up for you, fair play. All I would say is not to forget that if you have an alternator charging batteries and a travel power unit, you don't get the 12v for free - each load added will take as much diesel as it needs. Of course having said that you are doing two things on the same amount of engine wear, which is the important thing.

I was under the impression that an engine might last 10,000 hours, hopefully I'm massively wrong then. Also, as a liveaboard I have already put 1300hrs on it in a bit over a year, so at 4k in ten years you are a very light user.

 

mmmmmmm a very light user, er nope just a full time liveaboard for umpteen years and therefor gained the knowledge re how to live aboard without masses of leccy or gadgets. In fairness this boat had been plugged in in a marina till it was seven years old its only the last nearly three that it has been off grid in my ownership and I have run the engine more. Also when switching the travel power on when moving my fuel consumption doesn't double, far from it. I have no doubt the extra load uses a percentage of fuel extra but nowhere near as much as if I was traveling along with the propulsion engine and a further generator running separately.

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1 hour ago, luggsy said:

Yes costs less than a £5 

Only a littleun then. 

Mine takes 4 litres of oil plus the filter. So £28 every 200 hours. Except every 3rd service I change the fuel filter which is another £28 if I buy it from Cummins or £14 from Filters Direct. 

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Didn't realise this topic would be so divisive! I'm going to say that whichever method/s or approaches work for a particular individual, well that's fine.

A couple interesting things have cropped up though - firstly the Nife batteries - so infact something does exist that is properly suitable for domestic boat use. Pity about the price but I'm sure if we all used them costs would tumble. If the batteries are as good as they look, I wonder why so may other inferior types have gone on to reign supreme? That suggests either there i s a massive down side to them or possibly they are so good the man doesn't want you to have them!

I've also been hearing about the quieter, space saving wet exhausts, which I don't really understand but again sounds like the best option has been cast by the way side.

Getting back on track somewhat, one of my initial points was - what makes a marine generator a marine generator? I'm thinking one could take a "normal" genny and build it in all nicely with soundproofing and a fan and a diesel supply pipe from the tank. Would it be a case of the "proper" ones having some sort of bs approval or other? After all there could be safety issues if a diy build in wasn't done with a great deal of care. Yet I don't see that the marine ones are inherently different.

Also - I have seen some stephill generators that appeal to me - ssp3000 or thereabouts as these are fully cocooned and have a cooling fan - otherwise they look like what you might find in an open frame. They are petrol but I was thinking to bolt one down on the stern deck and run it off gas. Could do a very good rear stern housing that would double up as seating. Thus the cocoon could end up in another container making it quieter still (subject to air flow).

Does anyone use a similar Stephill? How clean is the 240v output - couldn't find any info.

Just brainstorming.

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This tells you everything you need to know about NIFE batteries. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery

Main issues are low voltage per cell, meaning more cells for a given battery voltage, hence more space required for them and unusual charging voltage   hence modified alternator required.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

This tells you everything you need to know about NIFE batteries. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery

Main issues are low voltage per cell, meaning more cells for a given battery voltage, hence more space required for them and unusual charging voltage   hence modified alternator required.

from browsing Bimble's weasel words I get the idea that other issues may be:

  • up-to-date support - maintenance advice from Thomas Edison!
  • change the electrolyte every 5 - 10 years recommended
  • loads must be happy with sagging voltages to utilise full capacity ie < 50%
  • irrigation system required
  • batteries won't freeze - but irrigation system can
  • max amps out rate is low

Am I being unfair/inaccurate?

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3 hours ago, Johny London said:

Getting back on track somewhat, one of my initial points was - what makes a marine generator a marine generator? I'm thinking one could take a "normal" genny and build it in all nicely with soundproofing and a fan and a diesel supply pipe from the tank. Would it be a case of the "proper" ones having some sort of bs approval or other? After all there could be safety issues if a diy build in wasn't done with a great deal of care. Yet I don't see that the marine ones are inherently different.

The key difference is water cooling. If you're relying on air cooling then there's a limit to how quiet you can make the thing, because you can't really allow airflow through the casing without also allowing a lot of sound out.

If everything is water cooled then the casing can be pretty much completely sealed.

Note that this includes water cooling of the generator coils, not just the engine.

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