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inbuilt marine generators


Johny London

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I've been researching proper inbuilt marine diesel generators and have found the following brands to look at: Fischer Panda, Kohler, Mase, Paguro, posibly Farymann. And Whisper.

Firstly - anything I've missed? Secondly, I was interested in something like a dometic, that bt use, if it could be workable. That brings me onto my third question - what are the requirements that allow a proper marine diesel genny to be fitted in the engine bay over rigging up a "normal" frame or suitcase diesel genny in such a way?

Oh and one last thing - how do they cool? I think I read that the Whisper cooling can be plumbed into the calorifier but I might be wrong.

I only have 44cm height on my side bits (counters?). So I was looking for something long and low - a lot of the stuff I've seen seems to be exactly the opposite.

thanks guys

 

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Just a couple of observations :

  1. You ideally want to be looking at 1500rpm generators as they are much quieter than the 3000rpm ones.

  2. You should be looking at a water cooled version (those which draw water from the outside) as they are quieter than those that are not water cooled.

Depending on size (Kw) you are looking around £5k-£6k for the generator, around another £1k for the installation kit and around £1k for installation (costs vary on how you will get the boat out of the water, automatic start up, manual start up etc. etc.) Budget on £7-8k

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You have missed the best one northern lights , very expensive, I have a Dometic tec30 in my bow a bit noisy but I always try to moor up away from other boats and houses , only problem is it gets very warm if you don't have the sides of the cratch open 

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When sizing a suitable genny, don't go large unless it's for a specific item you need it for.  If it's just mainly for charging batteries then the 4kw ones are more than enough!    I don't think you'll find anything to go under 44cm although there is a Fischer Panda that is around 41cm high, but how will you do oil changes, etc?  Good access is key to these are they are an engine after all, and you'll be more likely be getting more hours on it than your main engine.

Most are raw water cooled (via a heat exchanger), make sure you have a decent inlet that is more designed for canals rather than sea going.  Mine sucks up alot of plant life that I need to regularly remove from the inlet hose in the summer months. 

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3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

Most are raw water cooled (via a heat exchanger), make sure you have a decent inlet that is more designed for canals rather than sea going.  Mine sucks up alot of plant life that I need to regularly remove from the inlet hose in the summer months. 

I can see no reason, apart from some complication, why the raw water part of the system should not be circulated through a properly sized and designed skin tank or keel cooler but I do knowledge that you would then have to use a dry exhaust and that will be noisier than a wet one.

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We have a Fischer Panda, but the vehicle version rather than the marine, to avoid the hassle of raw water cooling. In vehicles they can share the existing cooling system or be plumbed to their own radiator. Since you're unlikely to be running the engine and Genny at the same time, the skin tank can handle both. And heat the hot water. Enough for a bath in an hour!

You will need good access for servicing (every 100 hours) or it will be  an impractical nightmare.

Oh and the vehicle version has a water cooled internal pre-silencer making it almost inaudible outside the boat.

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I'm after a small one, 3-4kw will be plenty. So it's really  the vehicle ones that lend themselves best to heating water? Wish I hadn't ordered the Webasto now but will prolly be ages before I get the genny sorted anyway. I'm looking at used bargains and there have been a few interesting things around 2-3k, plus would self install hopefully. I've come to the conclusion that a silent/built in genny is the only way to go for me.

I'm unclear what a wet exhaust is though. Would the vehicle version avoid needing to get the boat out of the water?

Luggsy, you've got your Dometic sitting on the well deck of the bow, or in/on the locker? I'm definitely wanting something silent that can be run in the evening.

Sorry for all the questions, it's a totally new are to me, and I'm just trying to get clear in my head exactly what I need. Doubtless I'll pick up a little Kipor or something for the interim.

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We have a Cummins Onan 6 kva one with remote start and keel cooling. We have two silencers on the exhaust which makes it almost inaudible a couple of boat lengths away. Has a 3 cylinder Kubota engine so spares readily available at about half the price Cummins charge. 

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1 hour ago, Johny London said:

I'm after a small one, 3-4kw will be plenty. So it's really  the vehicle ones that lend themselves best to heating water? Wish I hadn't ordered the Webasto now but will prolly be ages before I get the genny sorted anyway. I'm looking at used bargains and there have been a few interesting things around 2-3k, plus would self install hopefully. I've come to the conclusion that a silent/built in genny is the only way to go for me.

I'm unclear what a wet exhaust is though. Would the vehicle version avoid needing to get the boat out of the water?

Luggsy, you've got your Dometic sitting on the well deck of the bow, or in/on the locker? I'm definitely wanting something silent that can be run in the evening.

Sorry for all the questions, it's a totally new are to me, and I'm just trying to get clear in my head exactly what I need. Doubtless I'll pick up a little Kipor or something for the interim.

What do you call " Silent " I have been parked next to several " Silent " pain in the butt gennies over the years humming away at 10pm :o why do you need to generate electricity after 8pm? Speaking as a long term liveaboard we never find it necessary to do so and never have flat batteries. Just sayin like not having a go b4 someone jumps on me. We have a dometic travelpower on the main engine this does all the heavy work if needed during battery charging during the day and leaves us with fully charged batteries always by 8pm which does everything for many hours.

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34 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

What do you call " Silent " I have been parked next to several " Silent " pain in the butt gennies over the years humming away at 10pm :o why do you need to generate electricity after 8pm? Speaking as a long term liveaboard we never find it necessary to do so and never have flat batteries. Just sayin like not having a go b4 someone jumps on me. We have a dometic travelpower on the main engine this does all the heavy work if needed during battery charging during the day and leaves us with fully charged batteries always by 8pm which does everything for many hours.

You will struggle to hear my genny from around 4 meters away from the exhaust.  It's a wet exhaust which gets split before the outlet so the water outlet is under water level.   Fumes is a different matter ofcourse so having the exhaust outlet on the side is prob best so it's away from other boats.

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5 minutes ago, Robbo said:

You will struggle to hear my genny from around 4 meters away from the exhaust.  It's a wet exhaust which gets split before the outlet so the water outlet is under water level.   Fumes is a different matter ofcourse so having the exhaust outlet on the side is prob best so it's away from other boats.

Yes there are some good instalations but the problem is there are far more that are not so good due to cost. I can never understand though why gennies need running into the evening when good battery storage etc is available. As for so called silent petrol gennies :o

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Just now, mrsmelly said:

Yes there are some good instalations but the problem is there are far more that are not so good due to cost. I can never understand though why gennies need running into the evening when good battery storage etc is available. As for so called silent petrol gennies :o

Prob due to bad battery management/monitoring.   I run mine from around 6pm-7pm weekdays roughly every 3rd day with a good 5hrs run on a weekend day.   Not really in at other times but I try to run when I can use more load on the genny.  (ie. when using power tools at the weekend for refitting the boat, etc.).

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For some time I have had a  RoDa from Ron Davies, late of Portland, Dorset.  It is a 6 (or maybe 8) KVA Mecce alte SpA Italian generator thrashed round at 3000 rpm by a two pot Lombardini.  It skin cools with just the engine water pump off the same set up as the main engine and shares the silencer box and outlet with the engine.  It is quieter outside than in, and inaudible more than a boat length away.  I still would not want to run it after engine running hours though.

If you want to skin cool a genny remember that the skin tanks are less effective when you are stationary, in still water, so you need more skin tank per HP for the genny than you would for a main engine.

The advice about getting a 1500 rpm generator is good- much quieter, less engine wear, better frequency control but more copper so more expensive.

N

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5 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes there are some good instalations but the problem is there are far more that are not so good due to cost. I can never understand though why gennies need running into the evening when good battery storage etc is available. As for so called silent petrol gennies :o

 

Thus speaks a man who never charges his batteries properly!

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18 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I doubt this is a popular point of view..

Oh but it is!

A number of years ago we were camping in France.

It was a lovely evening. We were sitting outside the tent, enjoying the last of the day, glass or two of wine etc.

The people in the caravan opposite called their children in, erected an aerial, started a petrol generator and sat down to watch their TV.

Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!

GENERATORS ARE EVIL AND MUST BE DESTROYED

 

(The poster fully understands that other views are available)

Edited by Victor Vectis
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18 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Yes there are some good instalations but the problem is there are far more that are not so good due to cost. I can never understand though why gennies need running into the evening when good battery storage etc is available. As for so called silent petrol gennies :o

I totally agree with this, and some boaters opinion of quiet enough are not compatible with mine. If you are sitting next to someone lightly tapping a pencil it doesn't take long to drive you mad! 

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50 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

It's a sort of paradox that many folk say they are drawn to the canals to get away from the rat race, peace and quiet, more relaxed pace of life etc etc., but this year we have been plagued by the noise of engines and generators in the evenings as people try to recreate the conveniences associated with land based living.  Once upon a time people who took to the waterways accepted the limitations of a boat but the march of technology means now if you can afford it you can have it. 

I met a guy earlier in the year who not only had a 6kw generator on board but also a £1800 fork lift battery - just to power his massive sound system you would love to be moored next to him on a summers evening eh?

I have a very quiet engine but it is still not silent and we never run it when moored because I know how even a low level of noise can be intrusive, and people forget that an exhaust note can resonate several boat lengths away when it appears to be silent if you are stood close by.  

I doubt this is a popular point of view.. 

    

This is an extremely irritating post.

I am certain that my engine is very quiet (I have mentioned it on here previously).

Having read this I have just spent 20 futile minutes wandering up and down the bank looking for "exhaust resonances". Luckily there isn't another boat within sight or I would be anticipating the arrival of the men in white coats.:)

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4 minutes ago, frahkn said:

This is an extremely irritating post.

I am certain that my engine is very quiet (I have mentioned it on here previously).

Having read this I have just spent 20 futile minutes wandering up and down the bank looking for "exhaust resonances". Luckily there isn't another boat within sight or I would be anticipating the arrival of the men in white coats.:)

 

Missing the point by a country mile.

Your very quiet engine might be inaudible from the bank to you but the oh-so-deep thrum of an engine very quietly running in a neighbouring boat gets transmitted through the water and can be plainly heard inside my boat, even when silent on the bank. Other boaters probably find the same unless they are noisy buggers inside their boat and/or running their own engine too.

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1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

It's a sort of paradox that many folk say they are drawn to the canals to get away from the rat race, peace and quiet, more relaxed pace of life etc etc., but this year we have been plagued by the noise of engines and generators in the evenings as people try to recreate the conveniences associated with land based living.  Once upon a time people who took to the waterways accepted the limitations of a boat but the march of technology means now if you can afford it you can have it. 

I met a guy earlier in the year who not only had a 6kw generator on board but also a £1800 fork lift battery - just to power his massive sound system you would love to be moored next to him on a summers evening eh?

I have a very quiet engine but it is still not silent and we never run it when moored because I know how even a low level of noise can be intrusive, and people forget that an exhaust note can resonate several boat lengths away when it appears to be silent if you are stood close by.  

I doubt this is a popular point of view.. 

    

I would bet its actualy a very popular point of view.

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1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Missing the point by a country mile.

Your very quiet engine might be inaudible from the bank to you but the oh-so-deep thrum of an engine very quietly running in a neighbouring boat gets transmitted through the water and can be plainly heard inside my boat, even when silent on the bank. Other boaters probably find the same unless they are noisy buggers inside their boat and/or running their own engine too.

It was tongue in cheek Mike, hence the smiley. But it was exactly on point - exhaust resonances were mentioned (I have a 'through roof' exhaust) so I tried to find resonance "nodes" for my exhaust. Didn't find any.

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I think frahkn makes a good point. The canals are nice because they are quiet and peaceful. I suppose there is a balance that is right for each of us - between power/tech/convenience and the simple pleasures such as just sitting and taking it all in. That balance is different for us all. Personally, I'm surprised and a little disappointed by how much all the things we take for granted on land in the modern day, really do make life better. I suppose that's why every house dweller has them - I'm talking about internet, tv, washing machine, central heating, hot running water, fridge etc etc.

As my boat is a work in progress, I have experienced being without most things, and sadly I have to say life aboard really has got better each time I've added another facility, ie tv, internet, sink, stove, dishwasher even.

So, for me the way forward is to get my boat as well equipped as possible, whilst still being mindful to take the time to enjoy the essence of being on the water, and certainly not inconveniencing others. It is the 21st century and technology is working in our favour now. Led lights provide plenty of lighting at a tenth of the power of the old bulbs, small flatscreen tv's can take just 20watts or so, solar is getting better all the time and mobile phones and internet are available to all. Many of us can access iplayer and such. What a pity we are stuck with Victorian style energy storage ie lead acid batteries. That's going to be overcome one day but until then it seems the only answer is to have a ready and plentiful source of power generation.

Hence my desire for the perfect generator - silent and economical, and I can run what I like when I like, and not knacker my Victorian batteries :) or my engine :(

It amazes me that crt don't put electric posts on all the proper visitor moorings - they could clean up (literally and metaphorically) - charge double and we'd still be getting it cheap - plus no more pollution or noise (especially for neighbouring houses). It would make electrically propelled boats viable too :)

Anyway, I digress. I'd like to hear from anyone who has shoe horned a genny into their nb engine bay - looking again at mine, it seems I might just squeeze a paguro shaped on in next to the engine toward the bulkhead.

Edited by Johny London
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