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Managed To Avoid A Nasty Accident Today


Alan de Enfield

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

On  the lower Trent (below Keadby) it is interesting to note that it is a legal requirement to have at least two crew on board any vessel greater in length than 12 metres (definition of 'small vessel')

Manning of vessels 
11. (1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (b) of this Byelaw, the master of a vessel underway, other than a small vessel, shall have on board at least one other person to assist in the navigation thereof.

As 55 minutes has gone by I can no longer amend / correct the error (I quoted Keadby)

Correction :

For boats over 12 metres in length - The Lower Trent (below the Gainsborough Stone Arches) is subject to byelaws demanding that at least one other person is on board, in addition to the master, It is also a legal requirement to have and use a VHF radio and permission should be sought from the VTS before proceeding past that point.

7. (1) The master of a vessel, other than a river craft or a small vessel, shall give prior notice to VTS HUMBER of the vessel’s arrival at, departure from or movement within the Humber.

Subject to the provisions of paragraph (c) of this Byelaw, the master of a power-driven vessel underway shall maintain a continuous listening watch on the appropriate VHF channel for the area in which he is navigating as specified below:- 

Area  (i)  -Channel 14 

Area  (ii) (downstream of Keadby Bridge) -Channel 8  

Area  (ii) (upstream of Keadby Bridge) -Channel 6

Obviously anyone entering or exiting West Stockwith, or Keadby are affected by this byelaw.

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On 15/10/2017 at 22:09, ditchcrawler said:

Hope you are sending an incident report in to CRT I just tried to find their incident report forms but they seem to have gone missing.

 

The incident report form is back https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/34316-visitor-incident-reporting-form.pdf

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

On  the lower Trent (below Keadby) it is interesting to note that it is a legal requirement to have at least two crew on board any vessel greater in length than 12 metres (definition of 'small vessel')

Manning of vessels 
11. (1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (b) of this Byelaw, the master of a vessel underway, other than a small vessel, shall have on board at least one other person to assist in the navigation thereof.

Further upriver than that, Alan. The boundary line for ABP's jurisdiction is the South side of Gainsborough Road Bridge, although I don't know of anyone ever being prosecuted under that Byelaw in the 27 years since it came into force, and I wish I had a quid for every occasion I've offended against it. The corresponding boundary line for the Ouse is 100 yards lowside of Hook (Goole) Railway Bridge.

ABP did briefly display some signs that they might consider taking action against offenders in 2015, after C&RT sent a single manned narrowboat on it's way out of Naburn Lock for Selby on a big Spring ebb and with 4'-5' of fresh coming down. The poor sod in charge of it was nearly decapitated as his boat ran Cawood Bridge, clearing it only by a matter of inches. He was then unable to round-up to get into Selby Lock due to the rate of the ebb, and was carried downriver to end up grounded and dried out on the big sandbank between Boothferry and Hospital Island. Had he not ended up there and had been carried down on past Howden and under Hook Bridge into ABP's waters then they may well have taken some action.

Edited by TonyDunkley
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

For boats over 12 metres in length - The Lower Trent (below the Gainsborough Stone Arches) is subject to byelaws demanding that at least one other person is on board, in addition to the master, It is also a legal requirement to have and use a VHF radio and permission should be sought from the VTS before proceeding past that point.

 

 

Which suggests West Stockwith should also not allow a single handed departure.

I had not realised a need to contact VTS at Gainsborough. Would they receive a call from there ?

I thought perhaps Keadby is where the VTS contact should start. I tried it once and didnt get a response so havent bothered since and have not been arrested. Similarly I have called VTS from Grimsby and not received a response. VTS seem to consider 'pleasure' craft a nuisance.

 

.

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23 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Would they receive a call from there ?

Guess it would depend on you radio output an aerial height.

I have always been surprised that my little Cobra hand held on 2w can reach from Hull Marina to VTS Spurn Point (about 15 miles)

My fixed set on 25 watts has no problems anywhere as long as the receiving aerial is above the horizon

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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14 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Which suggests West Stockwith should also not allow a single handed departure

If APB controlled then you are correct.

If C&RT controlled then single handled in the lock is OK, but how did you get there ? Once on the River there must be a minimum of two on board

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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

 

Which suggests West Stockwith should also not allow a single handed departure.

I had not realised a need to contact VTS at Gainsborough. Would they receive a call from there ?

I thought perhaps Keadby is where the VTS contact should start. I tried it once and didnt get a response so havent bothered since and have not been arrested. Similarly I have called VTS from Grimsby and not received a response. VTS seem to consider 'pleasure' craft a nuisance.

 

.

The extract from the ABP Byelaws that Alan has quoted was written in and published back in the days when there was still shipping running up to Gainsborough - coasters to Spillers, topside of Gainsborough Bridge, and to the Gainsborough wharves, and Beckingham Wharf, lowside of the bridge.

The requirement to contact Spurn VTS no longer applies, either coming out into the Trent at Keadby for Stockwith, Gainsborough, Torksey or Cromwell, or from Gainsborough down to Keadby, if arriving at Keadby at least half an hour after the ebb is away. If you're aiming to get to Keadby at or before local HW then a call to the VTS from somewhere Derrythorpe dolphins and Keadby Bridge is advisable due to the possibility of coinciding with the arrival of shipping inbound for the Keadby or Gunness wharves.

Edited by TonyDunkley
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18 minutes ago, TonyDunkley said:

The requirement to contact Spurn VTS no longer applies, either coming out into the Trent at Keadby for Stockwith, Gainsborough, Torksey or Cromwell, or from Gainsborough down to Keadby, if arriving at Keadby at least half an hour after the ebb is away.

I have checked and,to my surprise, you are correct . Even when entering off the sea the calling of VTS is advisory not mandatory for leisure craft. I feel sure it used to be a requirement for all vessels regardless of commercial or leisure craft but I  guess they decided it was unnecessary.

http://www.humber.com/Yachting_and_Leisure/Pleasure_Craft_Navigation/

.

 

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4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I have checked and,to my surprise, you are correct . Even when entering off the sea the calling of VTS is advisory not mandatory for leisure craft. I feel sure it used to be a requirement for all vessels regardless of commercial or leisure craft but I  guess they decided it was unnecessary.

http://www.humber.com/Yachting_and_Leisure/Pleasure_Craft_Navigation/

.

 

The ‘Devil is in the detail’ You are not actually reading it correctly and are just interpreting it to suit.

The rules that you linked to actually say :

On entering the approaches, small craft are advised to contact VTS Humber on VHF channel 14, informing them of their position and intentions, thus allowing VTS Humber to monitor their passage through the approaches

What you are not noting is SMALL CRAFT.

Small craft are those below 12 metres, at 12 metres + it is mandatory to contact VTS

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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The ‘Devil is in the detail’ You are not actually reading it correctly and are just interpreting it to suit.

The rules that you linked to actually say :

On entering the approaches, small craft are advised to contact VTS Humber on VHF channel 14, informing them of their position and intentions, thus allowing VTS Humber to monitor their passage through the approaches

What you are not noting is SMALL CRAFT.

Small craft are those below 12 metres, at 12 metres + it is mandatory to contact VTS

Are you saying contacting VTS is mandatory below Gainsborough for 12 metre plus?

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28 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I have checked and,to my surprise, you are correct . Even when entering off the sea the calling of VTS is advisory not mandatory for leisure craft. I feel sure it used to be a requirement for all vessels regardless of commercial or leisure craft but I  guess they decided it was unnecessary.

http://www.humber.com/Yachting_and_Leisure/Pleasure_Craft_Navigation/

.

 

I don't think you've understood my #109 correctly. The requirement to contact the VTS from Gainsborough Bridge down no longer applies for purely practical, common sense reasons. With no shipping now going any further up the Trent than Gunness Wharf, calling the VTS to tell them that you're somewhere on the river between Keadby Bridge and Gainsborough Bridge is utterly pointless - unless you happen to be coming downriver and about to pass under Keadby Bridge just when inbound ships for Keadby and/or Gunness will be rounding-up and dropping onto the wharves - ie. normally shortly before Keadby HW, but, if they're late on the tide, then possibly for a very short while after local HW.

Edited by TonyDunkley
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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The ‘Devil is in the detail’ You are not actually reading it correctly and are just interpreting it to suit.

The rules that you linked to actually say :

On entering the approaches, small craft are advised to contact VTS Humber on VHF channel 14, informing them of their position and intentions, thus allowing VTS Humber to monitor their passage through the approaches

What you are not noting is SMALL CRAFT.

Small craft are those below 12 metres, at 12 metres + it is mandatory to contact VTS

My boat is ''small'' - 10.4m 

Where is  the 'small craft' definition according to VTS. I only see reference to pleasure/leisure craft?

 

 

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36 minutes ago, MartynG said:

My boat is ''small'' - 10.4m 

Where is  the 'small craft' definition according to VTS. I only see reference to pleasure/leisure craft?

 

 

Definitions :

.......

.......

“jetty” means any jetty, quay, pier, wharf or landing place. 
“master” in relation to a vessel means the master or other person for the time being having or taking charge or command of the vessel. 
“river craft” means a vessel used in navigating the Humber and not passing from the Humber to sea. 
“small vessel” means a vessel of less than 12 metres in length.

..........

.........

50 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Are you saying contacting VTS is mandatory below Gainsborough for 12 metre plus?

I am purely pointing out that the law demands that you do so.

As Tony points out, it may now be 'unnecessary' with regard to other traffic, but, I would rather (in the event of an incident) have complied with a simple act and not give anyone the possibility of 'wriggling' out of their responsibilities, eg insurers saying insurance was invalid etc. etc.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If APB controlled then you are correct.

If C&RT controlled then single handled in the lock is OK, but how did you get there ? Once on the River there must be a minimum of two on board

From Keadby, ran there in the summer single handed with no other boats, have done Keadby to Cromwell many times single handed and alone and also back again. Looks like all these rules and regulations your quoting are not  being enforced by CaRT, maybe you should have a word with someone on your moorings.

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3 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

From Keadby, ran there in the summer single handed with no other boats, have done Keadby to Cromwell many times single handed and alone and also back again. Looks like all these rules and regulations your quoting are not  being enforced by CaRT, maybe you should have a word with someone on your moorings.

Why would C&RT enforce other authorities Bye-Laws ? - it is nothing to do with C&RT, C&RT have no responsibility below Gainsborough.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Why would C&RT enforce other authorities Bye-Laws ? - it is nothing to do with C&RT, C&RT have no responsibility below Gainsborough.

But their the one's manning the locks letting single handed boaters on the river to get to West Stockworth and you asked how did he get there and also stated "Once on the River there must be a minimum of two on board" This is obviously not the case

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22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Definitions :

.......

.......

“jetty” means any jetty, quay, pier, wharf or landing place. 
“master” in relation to a vessel means the master or other person for the time being having or taking charge or command of the vessel. 
“river craft” means a vessel used in navigating the Humber and not passing from the Humber to sea. 
“small vessel” means a vessel of less than 12 metres in length.

..........

.........

I am purely pointing out that the law demands that you do so.

As Tony points out, it may now be 'unnecessary' with regard to other traffic, but, I would rather (in the event of an incident) have complied with a simple act and not give anyone the possibility of 'wriggling' out of their responsibilities, eg insurers saying insurance was invalid etc. etc.

From the bylaws - thank you.

http://www.humber.com/admin/content/files/Estuary Information/humber-navigation-byelaws-1990.pdf

There is also a definition of 'river craft' within the bylaws being a vessel that is not passing from the Humber to Sea and this doesn't seem to  have any length requirement attached to it. So may this be interpreted as saying if you are going down the Trent and to Hull you dont need to contact VTS ? 

I still think the intention of the current navigation instructions on the ABP website for leisure craft  makes contacting VTS optional for any leisure craft.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

From the bylaws - thank you.

http://www.humber.com/admin/content/files/Estuary Information/humber-navigation-byelaws-1990.pdf

There is also a definition of 'river craft' within the bylaws being a vessel that is not passing from the Humber to Sea and this doesn't seem to  have any length requirement attached to it. So may this be interpreted as saying if you are going down the Trent and to Hull you dont need to contact VTS ? 

I still think the intention of the current navigation instructions on the ABP website for leisure craft  makes contacting VTS optional for any leisure craft.

 

The text you originally quoted stated 'small craft' not 'river craft' so it is the definition of 'small craft' that is relevant

Had "On entering the approaches, small craft are advised to contact VTS Humber " actually said "On entering the approaches, river craft are advised to contact VTS Humber" you may have had a point.

 

27 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

"Once on the River there must be a minimum of two on board" This is obviously not the case

Legally it certainly is 'the case', however as with many laws, they are flouted (speed limits for example), and until something goes wrong, or someone is 'caught' no one cares. It doesn't change the fact that it 'is the case'

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The text you originally quoted stated 'small craft' not 'river craft' so it is the definition of 'small craft' that is relevant

I have sent an email to ABP to see if they have view on the rules/requirements  applicable to leisure craft and will report back if they respond.

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30 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I have sent an email to ABP to see if they have view on the rules/requirements  applicable to leisure craft and will report back if they respond.

That should be interesting.

I have been reading thru the various T&Cs and it looks as if a ‘River Craft’ is an unpowered barge that is towed by a ‘propelling vessel’.

(2) This paragraph applies to a river craft which is propelled by another vessel to which it is connected; 
(a) where one or more such river craft are so connected to the propelling vessel by means of one or more direct couplings, the said propelling vessel and     river craft connected thereto shall be deemed to be a single vessel for the purpose of paragraph (a) above; 
(b) where one or more such river craft are so connected to the propelling vessel by any means other than one or more direct couplings, each such river craft shall have on board at least one person to assist in the navigation thereof.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That should be interesting.

I have been reading thru the various T&Cs and it looks as if a ‘River Craft’ is an unpowered barge that is towed by a ‘propelling vessel’.

(2) This paragraph applies to a river craft which is propelled by another vessel to which it is connected; 
(a) where one or more such river craft are so connected to the propelling vessel by means of one or more direct couplings, the said propelling vessel and     river craft connected thereto shall be deemed to be a single vessel for the purpose of paragraph (a) above; 
(b) where one or more such river craft are so connected to the propelling vessel by any means other than one or more direct couplings, each such river craft shall have on board at least one person to assist in the navigation thereof.

A river craft is defined as in your earlier post . I guess a river craft could be propelled by another vessel.... or not. 

The clauses above seem to be more about the minimum number of persons on board. 

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19 hours ago, noddyboater said:

You might find that a minimum of 2 on board is a condition of your insurance provider for traveling on tidal water, especially after dark. Cromwell to Torksey is lovely on a full moon.. 

There are certainly some restrictions on some insurance policies - which is why you should always read all of the terms and conditions before buying any insurance  in case it adversely affects you.

For example my first insurance , being a novice boat owner, would not allow travel on The Humber  East of Trent Falls.

 

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