Managed To Avoid A Nasty Accident Today

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

It's all conjecture until someone tries it.  You first.

Of course it's conjecture, I think that is my point.

Although I haven't been on the receiving end, and am unlikely ever to be now but I think opening up the discussion is OK on a discussion forum. I also dont take anything I read on this forum or any other at face value, if I have a query on something posted I believe in raising it.

Besides since my post that you quoted, the actual risk seems to have been set out out and in context quite nicely.

Edited October 18, 2017 by MJG

[Alan de Enfield]

3 hours ago, MJG said:

Of course it's conjecture, I think that is my point

So, am I to take it that your suggestion would be :

Stop the boat, climb up and have a look how powerful the hydraulics look to be, make a decision as to ‘stop’ or ‘go’ , are the hydraulics stronger than my GRP ? - and proceed accordingly.

Maybe you would like to offer your caravan (nice strong chassis) up as the ’test piece’, after all Tony did say the hydraulic cylinders were a bit weedy compared to the old ‘Vickers’ cylinders – the current ones are, however, considerably larger than  those on my JCB ( and they have a fair bit of power in them)

Edited October 18, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[magnetman]

Sorry to butt in here and I think it has already been mentioned but a basic design Principe of a hydraulic system like a lock closing ram is that there will be a pressure relief valve of some sort so unless you are in canoe or small dinghy the gates will not crush your boat.

 

I was out walking down by the Thames at Rotherhithe recently where there is a disused ship lock. The rams were originally operated by water pressure and all the pipework is still visible. There is a pressure relief valve on the circuit. A spring with a ball under it. If something jams the gate then the valve opens.

Its not rocket science.

 

Or maybe it is ?

I suppose if the primary function of the prv is to protect the lock mechanism itself then boats may be less important.

I was interested (having read the previous posts now) that a grp boat allows sea passages. I had thougjht one would require a wooden boat for that !

Edited October 18, 2017 by magnetman

[mark99]

7 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Sorry to butt in here and I think it has already been mentioned but a basic design Principe of a hydraulic system like a lock closing ram is that there will be a pressure relief valve of some sort so unless you are in canoe or small dinghy the gates will not crush your boat.

 

I was out walking down by the Thames at Rotherhithe recently where there is a disused ship lock. The rams were originally operated by water pressure and all the pipework is still visible. There is a pressure relief valve on the circuit. A spring with a ball under it. If something jams the gate then the valve opens.

Its not rocket science.

No, it be hydraulics loike you said...... 

[Momac]

7 hours ago, noddyboater said:

Alan, could you do me a favour next time you see the chap who trains the volunteers?  Can you ask him why they insist on making boaters who are descending use a bow and stern line, even if alone in the lock. I've argued many times that it's far safer if you're single handed to use a centre rope or none at all as it's impossible to watch 2 ropes 60' apart that often snag on the cables. What's the worst that can happen if you don't use lines at all? You might slowly get drawn towards the gates? Oh dear, how dangerous.. 

Going down I accept there is hardly any turbulence. However there can be some forces exerted on the boat.

The locks are large and the wind can do some odd things . I have seen a narrowboat completely out of control in a Trent lock . It was taken bu the wind from one side to the other - but not in an orderly fashion.

We have been taught to have a rope on bow and stern regardless of penning up or penning down ... and  as we are based on the Trent we do so without thinking, like wearing  seat belt in a car.

Also always wear lifejacket on the Trent - advice  which you will often see ignored.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by MartynG

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

So, am I to take it that your suggestion would be :

Stop the boat, climb up and have a look how powerful the hydraulics look to be, make a decision as to ‘stop’ or ‘go’ , are the hydraulics stronger than my GRP ? - and proceed accordingly.

Maybe you would like to offer your caravan (nice strong chassis) up as the ’test piece’, after all Tony did say the hydraulic cylinders were a bit weedy compared to the old ‘Vickers’ cylinders – the current ones are, however, considerably larger than  those on my JCB ( and they have a fair bit of power in them)

No I am not saying that, I have already explained about opening up the discussion.

You also don't know a lot about modern caravan construction. Though it seems a strange thing to suggest given it would neither float nor is constructed in the same way as a mouled grp boat hull.

 

So assuming we went ahead with this 'experiment' the results would actually be irrelevant in terms assessing your boats resilience to being crushed by lock gates.

Edited October 18, 2017 by MJG

[Guest]

2 hours ago, magnetman said:

Sorry to butt in here and I think it has already been mentioned but a basic design Principe of a hydraulic system like a lock closing ram is that there will be a pressure relief valve of some sort so unless you are in canoe or small dinghy the gates will not crush your boat.

 

I was out walking down by the Thames at Rotherhithe recently where there is a disused ship lock. The rams were originally operated by water pressure and all the pipework is still visible. There is a pressure relief valve on the circuit. A spring with a ball under it. If something jams the gate then the valve opens.

Its not rocket science.

 

Or maybe it is ?

I suppose if the primary function of the prv is to protect the lock mechanism itself then boats may be less important.

I was interested (having read the previous posts now) that a grp boat allows sea passages. I had thougjht one would require a wooden boat for that !

I guess it all would depend on what pressure they would be set to before anything gave way. They obviously stop when they come together but my understanding is that it's a position sensor that detects when they are closed (and open) rather than the resistance created when they meet. I'm happy to be corrected on that though.

[magnetman]

My only experience of hydraulic sytems on existing lock mechanisms is on the Thames. 

If the lock is not full (or empty) and you activate the gate opening controls then the prv activates (obvious thing to do in a hydraulic circuit considering that a liquid can not be compressed).

Position sensors are used to inform the control system that gates and sluices are closed so that it is not possible to open both sets of sluices at the same time or open a sluice when the gate at the other end is not closed Lock keepers can override the position sensors (training) but I doubt they have the power to crush boats by overriding the basic functioning of a hydraulic circuit  .

Edited October 18, 2017 by magnetman

[Alan de Enfield]

50 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I have seen a narrowboat completely out of control in a Trent lock

I often sit on our mooring with the VHF radio on.

One day last Summer heard some interesting discussions and much hilarity but little detail relayed between the lockies up the River.

I asked a lockie who moored with us and he telephoned one of the other lockies to get the story.

A new boat with very experienced crew (many years on the canals) was dropped in at Newark Marina, it headed upstream and when it arrived at the 1^st lock, they entered but refused to use the sliders, insisting that they were perfectly safe and happy to stay ‘free’. The lockie refused to cycle the lock unless they ‘roped up’, they refused and insisted, as the Skipper of the boat, they were responsible for it, eventually the lockie conceded and cycled the lock.

As the water entered the boat was thrown backwards, sideways across the lock, rolled, then thrown forward and then eventually wedged across the lock. Considerable damage was done to the boat contents and paintwork with not a few dents. Not an ideal way to have maiden voyage with a brand new boat.

The message went along the River from lock to lock telling the lockies to ensure that when boat XXXXXXX arrived to ensure it locked alone as they refused to use the sliders.

Talking to the lockie a few days later it appears that they ‘roped-up’ on every subsequent lock.

[noddyboater]

2 hours ago, MartynG said:

Going down I accept there is hardly any turbulence. However there can be some forces exerted on the boat.

The locks are large and the wind can do some odd things . I have seen a narrowboat completely out of control in a Trent lock . It was taken bu the wind from one side to the other - but not in an orderly fashion.

We have been taught to have a rope on bow and stern regardless of penning up or penning down ... and  as we are based on the Trent we do so without thinking, like wearing  seat belt in a car.

Also always wear lifejacket on the Trent - advice  which you will often see ignored.

 

 

The "we" part of this post is quite telling. Try tying fore and aft if single handed, then keeping an eye on both lines as the boat drops, making sure they don't snag on breaks on the nylon sleeved cables. Common sense should be used, as it is by the more experienced old hand lockies. I've never been asked to use ropes when descending at Cromwell alone as there's really no need, and it isn't staffed by volunteers. Compare that to a volly at the Nether Lock last year who argued I should climb around a cratch board in a thunderstorm to secure a bowline when penning down alone.

[Momac]

14 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

The "we" part of this post is quite telling. Try tying fore and aft if single handed, then keeping an eye on both lines as the boat drops, making sure they don't snag on breaks on the nylon sleeved cables. Common sense should be used, as it is by the more experienced old hand lockies. I've never been asked to use ropes when descending at Cromwell alone as there's really no need, and it isn't staffed by volunteers. Compare that to a volly at the Nether Lock last year who argued I should climb around a cratch board in a thunderstorm to secure a bowline when penning down alone.

What do you do when you are penning up?

By the way you are quite correct . I never go single handed.

 

[noddyboater]

If penning up single handed with a keeper on I'll use a centre line or at a push if I'm sharing with cruisers I'll take the bowline off as well and hold it from the centre. If ascending with my own "crew" I just hold the boat near the bottom gates in the middle of the chamber. Having used the electric locks on the SSYN for years where there are no sliders as such this method works fine. 

[PD1964]

11 hours ago, noddyboater said:

Alan, could you do me a favour next time you see the chap who trains the volunteers?  Can you ask him why they insist on making boaters who are descending use a bow and stern line, even if alone in the lock. I've argued many times that it's far safer if you're single handed to use a centre rope or none at all as it's impossible to watch 2 ropes 60' apart that often snag on the cables. What's the worst that can happen if you don't use lines at all? You might slowly get drawn towards the gates? Oh dear, how dangerous.. 

Is this something new? As I've never been asked to use two ropes when doing any of the Trent locks and have always been single handed on both widebeams and narrowboats, just  used the centre line, most times stood on the roof.

[Guest]

I guess I better not mention that we never ever roped the boat off in any of the big locks, including the Trent and the Northern watrways. Nor did the majority of other boats we saw.

When we did the Trent there was never a keeper on duty so i operated the locks (including Nether Lock) and there was one crew on the boat making roping off at each end totally impractical. (I guess she could have clambered up onto the roof and roped off with the centre line but that in itself created a different risk)

Anyway we didn't sink or in fact have any issues what so ever, however if a locky was operating the lock that would have given a crew member at each end and if they insisted on us to do it I guess we would have done, just to get through the lock.

Edited October 19, 2017 by MJG

[matty40s]

I have single handed the Trent a few times,  I always use centre line only, up or down.

[Momac]

I don't agree with any of the techniques not involving ropes at all as I have witnessed things going wrong.  But I dont really care as long as it does not apply when I have my boat  in the lock at the same time.

 

 

 

[Dave_P]

12 hours ago, MartynG said:

Going down I accept there is hardly any turbulence. However there can be some forces exerted on the boat.

The locks are large and the wind can do some odd things . I have seen a narrowboat completely out of control in a Trent lock . It was taken bu the wind from one side to the other - but not in an orderly fashion.

We have been taught to have a rope on bow and stern regardless of penning up or penning down ... and  as we are based on the Trent we do so without thinking, like wearing  seat belt in a car.

Also always wear lifejacket on the Trent - advice  which you will often see ignored.

 

 

When I went down the Trent earlier this year, I shared a lock with another narrowboat which is based on the river.  They were in front prior to entering the lock so would have expected them to leave first.  Nice enough couple but they made a point of saying that they don't bother tying at all when going down.  We were roped fore and aft.  As the lock emptied they were moved all over the place and the skipper kept having to try to steady things by engaging forward and reverse.  They still ended up at an awkward diagonal angle when the gates were opened.  So we just cruised out and left them to it.

They weren't wearing lifejackets either.

10 hours ago, noddyboater said:

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Dave_P

[Midnight]

On big river locks, surely it's common sense, when ascending to use two ropes if you have crew and there's a locky; use a center rope stood on the roof if single-handed with a locky; and to use the centre rope tied to a bollard and keep well back if you are single-handed and working the controls. I've used all three methods on the Trent and in the massive Lemonroyd lock without any issues. Having said that, I did have a moment at Cranfleet lock this year using the latter method but that was caused by some of the gate paddles not working, rushing and being rather tied after a long day from Newark.

[Paul C]

4 minutes ago, Midnight said:

On big river locks, surely it's common sense, when ascending to use two ropes if you have crew and there's a locky; use a center rope stood on the roof if single-handed with a locky; and to use the centre rope tied to a bollard and keep well back if you are single-handed and working the controls. I've used all three methods on the Trent and in the massive Lemonroyd lock without any issues. Having said that, I did have a moment at Cranfleet lock this year using the latter method but that was caused by some of the gate paddles not working, rushing and being rather tied after a long day from Newark.

 

Well yes and no. Another's approach might be that the minimum level of safety is assured by having bow AND stern lines used, and that single handing a boat, by virtue of the lack of numbers, falls below the minimum. I've heard/read stuff unofficially by CRT where they consider the minimum number of crew to be two, and certainly in more formal boating such as operation of merchant vessels which need SMS etc, will have a minimum crew level imposed upon them.

I'll see if I can dig up the CRT examples.

[Midnight]

3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Well yes and no. Another's approach might be that the minimum level of safety is assured by having bow AND stern lines used, and that single handing a boat, by virtue of the lack of numbers, falls below the minimum. I've heard/read stuff unofficially by CRT where they consider the minimum number of crew to be two, and certainly in more formal boating such as operation of merchant vessels which need SMS etc, will have a minimum crew level imposed upon them.

I'll see if I can dig up the CRT examples.

There is no way that tying back and front when single-handed is safer than using just the centre rope especially when ascending and working the controls.

Not many of us operate merchant vessels so as for digging up examples, I wouldn't bother. Too many boaters single-hand to change attitudes now.

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, Midnight said:

There is no way that tying back and front when single-handed is safer than using just the centre rope especially when ascending and working the controls.

Not many of us operate merchant vessels so as for digging up examples, I wouldn't bother. Too many boaters single-hand to change attitudes now.

I think you've totally misunderstood what I said in my post. I never suggested single handers tie front and back. Also I never suggested I'd dig up merchant shipping examples, rather CRT examples. Anyway, I will update later but in the meantime please reread what I said a bit more carefully.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Midnight said:

On big river locks, surely it's common sense, when ascending to use two ropes if you have crew and there's a locky; use a center rope stood on the roof if single-handed with a locky; and to use the centre rope tied to a bollard and keep well back if you are single-handed and working the controls. I've used all three methods on the Trent and in the massive Lemonroyd lock without any issues. Having said that, I did have a moment at Cranfleet lock this year using the latter method but that was caused by some of the gate paddles not working, rushing and being rather tied after a long day from Newark.

 

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

I think you've totally misunderstood what I said in my post. I never suggested single handers tie front and back. Also I never suggested I'd dig up merchant shipping examples, rather CRT examples. Anyway, I will update later but in the meantime please reread what I said a bit more carefully.

On  the lower Trent (below Keadby) it is interesting to note that it is a legal requirement to have at least two crew on board any vessel greater in length than 12 metres (definition of 'small vessel')

Manning of vessels 
11. (1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (b) of this Byelaw, the master of a vessel underway, other than a small vessel, shall have on board at least one other person to assist in the navigation thereof.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

On  the lower Trent (below Keadby) it is interesting to note that it is a legal requirement to have at least two crew on board any vessel greater in length than 12 metres (definition of 'small vessel')

Manning of vessels 
11. (1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (b) of this Byelaw, the master of a vessel underway, other than a small vessel, shall have on board at least one other person to assist in the navigation thereof.

It's just my opinion but even if it wasn't a legal requirement I doubt I would attempt that way single handed anyway. Not least because if something happened to you (like becoming unwell) In fact personally I'd be reluctant to do any of the tidal Trent on my own.

[Paul C]

Thanks Alan, for posting that snippet regarding the lower Trent and the legal requirement. I've had a quick look but can't find anything elsewhere substantive regarding CRT telling people not to single hand, or obligating a crew of 2 minimum, so I think it was that example that had stuck in my mind. However if you read the Boaters Handbook and other advice from CRT its reads as if the assumption is made there is an additional crew member (or more) as well as the driver of the boat. And that the advice to secure both bow and stern lines to the vertical guide wires implies/assumes a crew of 2 or more - it would be, as Midnight pointed out - less safe, not more, to use both lines.

Also, not directly related but worth mentioning, sometimes these guidelines for locks etc assume a "boat shaped" boat - ie a pronounced curved side, where a single centre line would not stablise the boat that well, compared to a typical narrowboat with dead straight sides where its shape lends itself to being able to be well controlled with a correctly-used single centreline. And "boat shaped" boats may be smaller in length anyway, making it so much easier/safer for both bow and stern lines to be deployed and managed.

The Avon (river, the Warwickshire one) also has the requirement to secure using 2 lines in their locks. I guess they also assume a crew of >1 or a smaller "boat shaped" boat.

[john6767]

2 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Thanks Alan, for posting that snippet regarding the lower Trent and the legal requirement. I've had a quick look but can't find anything elsewhere substantive regarding CRT telling people not to single hand, or obligating a crew of 2 minimum, so I think it was that example that had stuck in my mind. However if you read the Boaters Handbook and other advice from CRT its reads as if the assumption is made there is an additional crew member (or more) as well as the driver of the boat. And that the advice to secure both bow and stern lines to the vertical guide wires implies/assumes a crew of 2 or more - it would be, as Midnight pointed out - less safe, not more, to use both lines.

Also, not directly related but worth mentioning, sometimes these guidelines for locks etc assume a "boat shaped" boat - ie a pronounced curved side, where a single centre line would not stablise the boat that well, compared to a typical narrowboat with dead straight sides where its shape lends itself to being able to be well controlled with a correctly-used single centreline. And "boat shaped" boats may be smaller in length anyway, making it so much easier/safer for both bow and stern lines to be deployed and managed.

The Avon (river, the Warwickshire one) also has the requirement to secure using 2 lines in their locks. I guess they also assume a crew of >1 or a smaller "boat shaped" boat.

I thought on the Trent the requirement for 2 people on board and VHF came into force when it became controlled by ABP, at Gainsborough?  If so it would not be in anything from CRT as they do not require 2 people on the part of the Trent that comes under their juristication.

You are quite correct that ANT require fore and aft ropes on the Avon, and going up particularly on the upper Avon you need it. I don't believe however that ANT require 2 crew.