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Lucas 2v Traction Batteries ??


Richard10002

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11 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Doesn't the charging source raring become academic once above about 90% SOC. If the batteries are only drawing 10A at 90%, it would take well over 6 hours to get close to 100% with a 600Ah bank.

Yes, but as you say the last 10% takes at least 6 hours, irrespective of the battery capacity. 

Years ago I used to charge 50 volt, 15,050Ah batteries from two 2000 amp rectifiers paralleled together, so a 4000 amp charging source. Still used to take 24 hours to fully charge a flat battery. That is why reasonably quick battery charging requires a charging source of about 25% of the battery capacity, to get the "early amps" in quickly. If you use a very small charging source, the battery will eventually charge but the first 50-90% will take an inordinately long time.

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11 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Don't want to nit pick but US Battery reckon on 8 to 12 hours for a full charge from flat:

http://usbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/usb-charging-recommendations.pdf

Well 42 years experience with lead acid batteries in critical power applications,  telephone exchanges,  hospitals, banks, and data centres has show me you can get up to 95% in 12 hours and the final 5% takes another 12. Perhaps the US battery data comes from carefully controlled lab conditions?

Back in the late 70's I had a colleague who had worked on diesel elecitric submarines, he reckoned they got battery charging down to 12 hours by bubbling compressed air up through the battery whilst it was charging. Apparently this prevented the hydrogen bubbles from collecting on the surace of the plates, which inhibits the chemical reaction between plate and electrolyte.

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I spent all my money on the boat end of Oct 2013, by January that 550Ah bank in the picture posted earlier was gassing. 15 litres water into 5 batteries wtf! The fact they had replaced 1 battery before I got the boat suggests there was already an issue. & I'm quite sure I killed them off completely in my 1st month of ownership before I got to shore power, steep learning curve (discovered I had an immersion heater which had been left on for 3 weeks solid). Just swapping them out for new batteries cut my shore power bill in half from £10 pw to £5 pw.

So with not a lot of money left (kids wanted Xmas pressies, granddaughter was too young to know so didn't get anything) after paying licence mooring etc & with it all due for renewal again on 1st April, I got some cheapo batteries in January 2014, 330Ah with just 85 cycles (yes I've not heard of that, but thats what the manufacturer said they were made for I found out some time earlier this year) I managed to make them last 4 years (getting out 4-6 weeks per year off grid), but they now need replacing.

My fridge freezer is old & tired & is almost always on, & pulls 5A (12V), so over 24 hours that would be 120Ah, leaving me with just 30Ah to play with (half of 300Ah bank)

If I moored up at 8pm with full batteries, watch 4 hours of TV, lights on, then by 8am all is good. If I moor up at 2 pm & watch 10 hours of TV, then by 8am I'm getting a bit twitchy & wanna start the engine.

If I turn on my computer (& associated bits eg 3 monitors, speakers etc) which is a power hungry beast & can pull 25A (12V DC side inc inverter losses) if I push it hard, eg gaming on highest settings, it can't stay on for long. Being the night owl that I am I want to use it. Sure I could get a laptop but to get the same spec you're looking at over £2000 laptop, vs same spec desktop I can build for under £600.

I've since added 660W of solar.
I am fully aware of how much I'm using vs how much I'm putting pack in. I like to overestimate the former & underestimate the latter, which does seem to correlate with real world observations. The fact I made them 85 cycle 330Ah bank last so long (estimate 120 cycles) suggests I'm getting something right.

I also want hot water for us both to shower, so I'll run the engine for an hour or 2 in the morning & at the same time get some bulk charging done (175A alternator). My solar array can put out 48A max, but it aint going to first thing in the morning. Then after that either go cruising or let the solar do its job, maybe even run the engine a bit more depending on conditions if I'm staying put (eg June 29th cold & dark all day, fire lit, no sunshine, solar panels putting out just 0.5A)

Here's the thing, that 600Ah of 'cheap' leisure batteries aint that cheap. What I was thinking of getting keeps jumping between £100 to £120 & back again for 1 battery, so that £500 or £600 for a 600Ah 500 cycle bank (50% DoD). Que these PzS batteries at £105 each for 1250 cycles at 80% DoD for not a lot more, & my Mastervolt 100A charger can handle it, & when I'm out I'm likely moving anyway.

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1 hour ago, Ssscrudddy said:

My fridge freezer is old & tired & is almost always on, & pulls 5A (12V), so over 24 hours that would be 120Ah, leaving me with just 30Ah to play with (half of 300Ah bank)

60W av or 1.4Kw/day sounds a LOT for a 12V unit, even if it is a fridge freezer. I'd be checking out ventilation and the temperature of the condenser grid thing with that sort of energy use.

1 hour ago, Ssscrudddy said:

If I turn on my computer (& associated bits eg 3 monitors, speakers etc) which is a power hungry beast & can pull 25A (12V DC side inc inverter losses) if I push it hard, eg gaming on highest settings, it can't stay on for long. Being the night owl that I am I want to use it. Sure I could get a laptop but to get the same spec you're looking at over £2000 laptop, vs same spec desktop I can build for under £600.

Mayyyyybe have a bit of a break from gaming while out of the marina for 4-6 weeks a year? Xiaomi do a lappie which is passable for modern games:

https://www.gearbest.com/laptops/pp_786412.html?lkid=11516416

1 hour ago, Ssscrudddy said:

Here's the thing, that 600Ah of 'cheap' leisure batteries aint that cheap. What I was thinking of getting keeps jumping between £100 to £120 & back again for 1 battery, so that £500 or £600 for a 600Ah 500 cycle bank (50% DoD). Que these PzS batteries at £105 each for 1250 cycles at 80% DoD for not a lot more, & my Mastervolt 100A charger can handle it, & when I'm out I'm likely moving anyway.

Try the tractions by all means, though they may underperform if not charged to the mfrs recommendations.... I s'pose as long as they outlast the leisures at the same price then you're quids in, bearing in mind bank rewiring and all that. It would be interesting to see how they pan out. :)

1 hour ago, cuthound said:

Well 42 years experience with lead acid batteries in critical power applications,  telephone exchanges,  hospitals, banks, and data centres has show me you can get up to 95% in 12 hours and the final 5% takes another 12. Perhaps the US battery data comes from carefully controlled lab conditions?

Sound like all your experience is with stationary standby batts, whereas the US Battery ones are motive power batts, maybe a different kettle of fish. Saying that all lead acid batts need 24hrs did sound like a bit of a sweeping statement to me. :)

I guess the latter get used 8-16 hours a day, which doesn't leave a full 24hrs for recharging. Maybe they catch up at the weekends, but I expect the IUIUo industrial chargers just time out after a normal charge cycle, and certainly don't extend the absorbtion charge until a full 24 hours have passed.

Edited by smileypete
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6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Remember that the larger the bank the longer you can go between charging

 

I don't really get why you say this.

In my personal experience having a big bank in order to go say a week between recharges, just results in a goosed set of batteries very quickly. 

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6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't really get why you say this.

In my personal experience having a big bank in order to go say a week between recharges, just results in a goosed set of batteries very quickly. 

Come on Mike - read the rest of the sentence/paragraph.  I was trying to explain why the large bank may not be such a good idea, not advocating that he should go days between charging. I am with you on the time to recharge issue but many are not and do not understand so specify a large bank, forgetting about recharge times, in the belief it will allow them to go days between charges. Actualyl it will, but they will damage most batteries that way.

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3 hours ago, cuthound said:

Yes, but as you say the last 10% takes at least 6 hours, irrespective of the battery capacity. 

Years ago I used to charge 50 volt, 15,050Ah batteries from two 2000 amp rectifiers paralleled together, so a 4000 amp charging source. Still used to take 24 hours to fully charge a flat battery. That is why reasonably quick battery charging requires a charging source of about 25% of the battery capacity, to get the "early amps" in quickly. If you use a very small charging source, the battery will eventually charge but the first 50-90% will take an inordinately long time.

OK... I agree, (and you clearly know a lot more about this than me :) ).

Early amps quickly.... Later and last amps, as long as it takes.

I've got an 80A charger and a nominal 450Ah bank, (although it's probably half that now :( ). If I discharge overnight to say 50%, (using about 100Ah), I find I get about 20 minutes at bulk, (80A), then it drops to a bit less than half the amps being drawn each hour. e.g. 1hr reads 37A, 2hr reads 15A, 3hr reads 6A, 4hr reads 3A, and I tend to call them about full at this point. 

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10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Come on Mike - read the rest of the sentence/paragraph.  I was trying to explain why the large bank may not be such a good idea, not advocating that he should go days between charging. I am with you on the time to recharge issue but many are not and do not understand so specify a large bank, forgetting about recharge times, in the belief it will allow them to go days between charges. Actualyl it will, but they will damage most batteries that way.

Thats what I did when I got my 450Ah bank of Trojan 105s.... 2 or 3 days at 80Ah to 100Ah a day, then charged to about 90%, another day at 80Ah, then charge to 100%, then go home for 3 days. Decimated them within not many months :(

Their capacity is now about 225Ah, and I've had them just two and a half years.

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1 hour ago, smileypete said:

Sound like all your experience is with stationary standby batts, whereas the US Battery ones are motive power batts, maybe a different kettle of fish. Saying that all lead acid batts need 24hrs did sound like a bit of a sweeping statement to me. :)

I guess the latter get used 8-16 hours a day, which doesn't leave a full 24hrs for recharging. Maybe they catch up at the weekends, but I expect the IUIUo industrial chargers just time out after a normal charge cycle, and certainly don't extend the absorbtion charge until a full 24 hours have passed.

Yup, my experience is mainly with standby batteries.

Standby or motive, the chemistry is the same, although plate construction and manufacturing methods differ. 

Standby batteries tend of do nothing, until a mains power failure,  then supply the load until the gemerators start. Only so etimes the generators don't and the can go down to anything from 0 volts to 1.80 volts per cell depending upon whether the battery has low voltage cut off protection or not.

On reconnection most modern critical power chargers are either multistage voutage dependent, particularly where the battery voltage isn't needed for the load (UPSs)  or have a manual override to increase the voltage where one battery can be taken off load for charging to spwed recharge up (DCPP). 

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1 hour ago, Ssscrudddy said:

That laptop is hilarious & rubbish, & I've no intention of waiting 6 months for a laptop that most likely wont show up.

Go on then, in what way is it hilarious and rubbish? It'd take about a week on DHL or whatever they use for expedited.

What do you regard to be a good laptop then?

Edited by smileypete
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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I don't really get why you say this.

In my personal experience having a big bank in order to go say a week between recharges, just results in a goosed set of batteries very quickly. 

Be interesting to see how reasonable 'el cheapos' cope with such treatment.

If they do OK whereas the Trojans don't, either there's something amiss with the latter or how they're charged, or even how they should be charged.

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It's £200 more for something that's about 2/3 the spec of what I've got (plus other issues). Ok I don't have an SSD. & gearbest are notorious for saying they've got stock when they haven't. & if royal mail catch it I'm likely gonna get stuck with a hefty import bill which I'll have to pay before they let me have it.

Edit to say I don't consider any laptop a good one, a desktop to the same spec costs far less, doesn't have the heat issues of the same spec laptop, & the laptop will still use the same amount of electricity, possibly more because it is going to need more powerful fans therefore be noisier.

Edited by Ssscrudddy
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3 hours ago, cuthound said:

Back in the late 70's I had a colleague who had worked on diesel elecitric submarines, he reckoned they got battery charging down to 12 hours by bubbling compressed air up through the battery whilst it was charging. Apparently this prevented the hydrogen bubbles from collecting on the surace of the plates, which inhibits the chemical reaction between plate and electrolyte.

This makes a lot of sense.

There was a thread on here some years back where Gibbo was explaining that the optimum charge voltage was an ever-moving beast. Too much voltage causes too many bubbles which then occlude the plates. Too low a voltage and you’re not charging as fast as you could. However, the above voltages change constantly according to temp and SoC. Various manufacturers have looked at designing a charger that can track this voltage but it’s too complex and expensive to be practical.

So... what we all need is a source of compressed air and some holes in the bottom of our batteries ;)

4 hours ago, smileypete said:

Don't want to nit pick but US Battery reckon on 8 to 12 hours for a full charge from flat:

http://usbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/usb-charging-recommendations.pdf

I’d suggest they’re wrong. 

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19 minutes ago, WotEver said:

This makes a lot of sense.

There was a thread on here some years back where Gibbo was explaining that the optimum charge voltage was an ever-moving beast. Too much voltage causes too many bubbles which then occlude the plates. Too low a voltage and you’re not charging as fast as you could. However, the above voltages change constantly according to temp and SoC. Various manufacturers have looked at designing a charger that can track this voltage but it’s too complex and expensive to be practical.

So... what we all need is a source of compressed air and some holes in the bottom of our batteries ;)

In the early days of my career, charge voltage was manually controlled, checked and adjusted every 15-30 minutes (or soon error if our didn't want to maximise the overtime :D).

Another risk with too high a charge voltage is thermal runaway, although I have never seen this in practice.

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28 minutes ago, cuthound said:

In the early days of my career, charge voltage was manually controlled, checked and adjusted every 15-30 minutes

How were you determining the optimal voltage? Higher voltage will result in higher current but lots of that current will be used electrolysing water. A lower voltage might show less current but a higher rate of charge. 

So how did you do it?

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7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

How were you determining the optimal voltage? Higher voltage will result in higher current but lots of that current will be used electrolysing water. A lower voltage might show less current but a higher rate of charge. 

So how did you do it?

We had charts for different battery types, showing the voltage to use for specific gravity ranges,  corrected for battery temperature. This was back in the 1970's. 

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Just now, cuthound said:

 

We had charts for different battery types, showing the voltage to use for specific gravity ranges,  corrected for battery temperature. This was back in the 1970's. 

Ahh, clever. Someone had done all the hard work on a bench somewhere. 

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On 10/19/2017 at 18:43, cuthound said:

Another risk with too high a charge voltage is thermal runaway, although I have never seen this in practice.

Read a few reports of it happening with boat batts - 'boiled batts' - usually in summer.

The US Battery Charging doc I posted a link to, shows a charging profile where the final stage to 15.5V is done at C/30, which will avoid any thermal runaway I'dexpect.

No marine/boat charger can do such a thing though as far as I know :) I guess some some the industrial ones do. A current limited variable supply in parallel with a more conventional charger could give the same results I s'pose.

Edited by smileypete
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  • 3 months later...
On 13/10/2017 at 21:51, wiltshirewonderer said:

Looks a good price. Also worth checking out these, the larger sizes are also a very good deal: http://solarwindturbinebatteries.co.uk/products-page/new-cells-ipzsepzshpsz-2v-cells/

Account suspended.... anyone know the new web address?

They had Trojan T105s for £115 delivered, so a good price - or was it a scam??

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10 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Account suspended.... anyone know the new web address?

They had Trojan T105s for £115 delivered, so a good price - or was it a scam??

Perhaps they went bust through selling items at unsustainably low prices. 

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1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Perhaps they went bust through selling items at unsustainably low prices. 

Agreed.. but it would be handy to know if the still exist, selling at the same price, and have merely changed their web site address, (although "web site suspended" suggests the worst).

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