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Lucas 2v Traction Batteries ??


Richard10002

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1 minute ago, smileypete said:

OK, what make/brand are they?

Right - this might not be very helpful, however two are labelled Platinum Leisure Plus, and two are unlabelled. See photo :

Out of interest we've been on charge for two days at a marina, and when testing the batteries just now with the cold-cranking tester (I know it's not fully representative), all four batteries are showing as 'good', which is a bit more reassuring.

I'm wondering if our four hours cruising a day with the alternator being 'fooled' by the solar MPPT pushing the volts up, has simply resulted in not fully charging each day.

15081557408121253298265.jpg

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1 hour ago, Rustonick said:

Thanks Tony - that test makes a lot of sense. Do I also take it that you're suggesting that the solar panels could be 'fooling' the alternator into a lower output.  If so, wouldn't it be prudent to disconnect/cover the panels whilst charging with the engine running ?

I guess an alternative is to invest in an alternator 'controller', to help overcome the higher voltage issue. 

The solar and alternator will have very similar absorption voltages while the in bulk phase voltage regulation does not come into it but Many solar controllers seem to switch from absorption into float based on time so are likely to drop their voltage rather too early. That does not matter as far as the alternator is concerned because the solar voltage then will be lower than the regulated voltage. However I do not know anything about your solar controller so I suggested covering it so we are dealing with something that is  very well known - the alternator. If the charging voltage is less than about 14.2 volts then the 1 to 2% of battery capacity this may not be correct. This is why I suggested running            until the current has stabilised for at least an hour.

Where I do think solar may be misleading is that with fairly well charged batteries and only modest loads the solar is likely to be holding the battery voltage artificially high when its daylight and the engine is not running. That may well persuade you that the batteries are better charged than they are. Always best to do rested voltage readings in the dark so solar can not interfere., Ideally early in the morning with no loads running so there is no chance of surface charge giving an artificially high voltage.

 

 

 

 

Basic alternator controllers can not reduce the charging voltage, only hold it steady (ignoring possible temperature compensation) so solar can not fool the alternator into anything. If it did the alternator would probably shut down and put the warning lamp on.

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Another point. Most High Rate Discharge testers ordinary boaters can get hold of are for modest car batteries so a faulty 110 Ah battery may still show good because the load is not high enough (no idea how the Sterling tester works). Nowadays they are set for CCA rather than Ah and there is no reliable correlation between the two.

That battery wiring looks decidedly sub-optimum to me so  one battery may have been doing more work than the others and is now failing. Its best not to test  straight off charge, even if only to prevent the battery exploding!

Try disconnecting each battery in turn overnight and measuring its voltage in the morning. From fully charged the day before each should read  at least 12.7 volts. If less suspect a faulty battery - internal short circuit.

 

 

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On 10/14/2017 at 22:51, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I've had 560W of solar for three years and that made not a jot of difference. The damage gets done in the four winter months when the solar doesn't work. 

My solar has just failed this week. Until this week it topped up that batteries to 100% (according to the lying SG) during the day while I'm out at work. This last few days I come back to the boat to see the SG claiming less and less. Batteries only 70% SoC on return from work on Friday having been falling a little each day.

Now the Whispergen *might* fix this but I now have doubts. It runs for half an hour then shuts off with an overheat error, during which time the 2kW of rads heat the boat to an oven-like temperature. If I arrange to dump the excess heat into the skin tank to make it run for the hours at a time needed to charge the batteries properly I'm concerned the fuel consumption might be astronomical. This battery thing seems almost unsolveable. Huh....

I did say you needed 5 KW of radiators Mike My system has been working for 6 years with success so add those rads and the cauliflower into the system

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14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Another point. Most High Rate Discharge testers ordinary boaters can get hold of are for modest car batteries so a faulty 110 Ah battery may still show good because the load is not high enough (no idea how the Sterling tester works). Nowadays they are set for CCA rather than Ah and there is no reliable correlation between the two.

That battery wiring looks decidedly sub-optimum to me so  one battery may have been doing more work than the others and is now failing. Its best not to test  straight off charge, even if only to prevent the battery exploding!

Try disconnecting each battery in turn overnight and measuring its voltage in the morning. From fully charged the day before each should read  at least 12.7 volts. If less suspect a faulty battery - internal short circuit.

 

 

Thanks Tony. Take your point about wiring, however not sure how one battery can work harder than the others if all positives are inter-connected with 70mm2 cable and all negatives likewise.

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So what are the two thick red wires  and the thin reddish wire running upwards from different batteries then? Any of them will allow one battery to be discharged slightly more that the others. You also have thick red wires running downwards from different batteries. I accept one may be the engine battery but on that photo I can not see exactly what is going on.

We do not advise that all positives should be on one end of the battery chain and all the negative on the other for no reason. However thick the cables are the actual terminal joints will have some resistance so in your case that will allow  some batteries to do more work than the others. How much is ,very much open to question and how much practical effect this will have is also open to question but when trying to diagnose potential battery problems it best to get the basics right first.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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If the batteries are not sealed and are topupable is wise to route the cables around clear of the topping up lift off covers.  Its a right pain getting em off if cables are straggling over them, shifting them out of the way and often having to unbolt them.

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2 hours ago, Rustonick said:

Right - this might not be very helpful, however two are labelled Platinum Leisure Plus, and two are unlabelled. See photo :

Out of interest we've been on charge for two days at a marina, and when testing the batteries just now with the cold-cranking tester (I know it's not fully representative), all four batteries are showing as 'good', which is a bit more reassuring.

I'm wondering if our four hours cruising a day with the alternator being 'fooled' by the solar MPPT pushing the volts up, has simply resulted in not fully charging each day.

15081557408121253298265.jpg

Maybe try something more mainstream like Numax, Varta next time if they're for daily off grid use.

Might even be possible to breathe a bit of life back into them by careful equalising or charging at slightly higher voltages, but most people will prefer the safer and far easier option of getting a new set of batts.

As Tony says any batt wiring issues won't help, also they may have been undercharged some. Ideally for a full charge the tail current should stabilise at a steady low level, for sealed batts this may be quite low indeed.

1 hour ago, Rustonick said:

Thanks Tony. Take your point about wiring, however not sure how one battery can work harder than the others if all positives are inter-connected with 70mm2 cable and all negatives likewise.

A clamp meter on the interconnects should show up any wiring imbalance or an underperforming batt.

Edited by smileypete
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5 hours ago, Rustonick said:

After four hours the output to the batteries reduces to around 3 amps, telling me that they're near full charge

Not necessarily. It depends on their current capacity. If it’s down to say 150Ah then 3A is still 2%. When the charging current at 14.2V or higher has stabilised at a low figure for say 45 minutes you can then say they’re close to fully charged. Was the 3A still slowly decreasing?

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56 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Not necessarily. It depends on their current capacity. If it’s down to say 150Ah then 3A is still 2%. When the charging current at 14.2V or higher has stabilised at a low figure for say 45 minutes you can then say they’re close to fully charged. Was the 3A still slowly decreasing?

Good point.  Each time I checked at the end of a four hour cruise, the charging current had obviously fallen to 3A from a higher level, but what I didn't do was continue to monitor with the engine running after we'd tied up.

The engine is a three-cyl Ruston - quite noisy etc, and SWMBO likes to have it turned off asap after stopping !

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Something else to remember about "proper" traction batteries, as I have a two x 216Ah sets, is that they are not sealed, and hence require periodic topping up with distilled water, which the common or garden leisure batteries do not, as they are sealed for life. Not a big issue if you are somebody who is used to routine maintenance, major problem if you are a "out of sight, out of mind" type of boater. Also, for the same reason (this water has to go somewhere), your battery container should be both vented and accessible, as they all should be!

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4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

So what are the two thick red wires  and the thin reddish wire running upwards from different batteries then? Any of them will allow one battery to be discharged slightly more that the others. You also have thick red wires running downwards from different batteries. I accept one may be the engine battery but on that photo I can not see exactly what is going on.

We do not advise that all positives should be on one end of the battery chain and all the negative on the other for no reason. However thick the cables are the actual terminal joints will have some resistance so in your case that will allow  some batteries to do more work than the others. How much is ,very much open to question and how much practical effect this will have is also open to question but when trying to diagnose potential battery problems it best to get the basics right first.

In hindsight perhaps the photo didn't help as much as I thought it would !

The red wires to the bottom of the photo are all of the battery interconnecting cables, the left hand thick red cable supplies all of the 12v circuits via a distribution board. The thick red cable on the second battery supplies the inverter - intermittent use only. The thin red wire is temp sensor cable for the charger.

The negatives are grouped from the RH end and joined to a common point - admittedly not as tidy looking as it could be.

 

Edited by Rustonick
Forgot other red cables.
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Do batteries have to be under the floor?

I have room for 5 standard leisure batteries. 330 x 172 x 242 mm. The floor sits just above the isolator.

 

The dimensions of the 670Ah 2V cells from the 2nd place mentioned are 198 x 83 x 695 mm.

If I was to put them in the existing tray (in the space of the 3 batteries on the right) they would be sticking up 368 mm above the floor.

Now seeing as there is nothing in the way, can I just cut a hole in the floor & then build a wooden box around it?

IMG_20140125_142257.jpg

Edited by Ssscrudddy
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As long as the connections are insulated by some kind of cover to prevent accidental short circuits and the batteries secured to prevent accidental movement then the only other consideration is that they must be vented to the outside (unless they’re sealed, which the 2V cells aren’t).

So no, they don’t have to be under the floor.

See 3.1.1

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

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No, they dont have to be under the floor but they do have to be securely located and protected from things being dropped on them and shorting them out.

Damn, WotEver can type faster than me. :mellow:

Edited by cuthound
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Usually on shore power, probably get out about 4-6 weeks per year. The batts in that pic were knackered, probably already on their way out when I bought the boat 4 years ago & helped by me to finish them off in the month it took me to get to my marina.
(The white 1 is the starter battery & fine)

Anyway I replaced the domestic bank with 3 cheapo leisure batteries (shore power usage went from £10pw to £5 pw), which I only found out earlier this year from the manufacturer are good for 85 cycles. Well they've lasted 4 years @ 4-6 weeks per year means I've managed to get about 120 cycles out of them. Doesnt include the multiple times I've forgotten to turn the shore power on & was therefore running off the inverter only with things that shouldnt be eg immersion heater microwave washing machine... Well disguised by the 660W of solar that I added.
But they are totally shot now.

I want at least 600Ah bank, my existing 330Ah isnt big enough. So buying 'cheapo' leisures again I was considering these
https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product/abs-120ah-ampere/ 
now £100 each but were £120 last time I looked which would have been £600 for 5. So not so cheap.

So after seeing this thread these http://solarwindturbinebatteries.co.uk/products-page/new-cells-ipzsepzshpsz-2v-cells/4-pzs-et460-2-volt-460ah-c5-506ah-c10-500ah-c20-565ah-c100-duplicate/
at £105 each for 2000 cycles 670Ah total £630 vs the 'cheapo' leisures for 500 cycles 600Ah total £600 (ok now £500) seems like a no brainer.

Just waiting on an answer from them about charging them, I know my solar can do the required voltage, can be programmed up to 17V (660W solar 4 panels, 2 MPPT controllers 30A Tracer BN 3215) But my Mastervolt charger I think max is 14.4V.

Edited by Ssscrudddy
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4 hours ago, Ssscrudddy said:

Usually on shore power, probably get out about 4-6 weeks per year. The batts in that pic were knackered, probably already on their way out when I bought the boat 4 years ago & helped by me to finish them off in the month it took me to get to my marina.
(The white 1 is the starter battery & fine)

Anyway I replaced the domestic bank with 3 cheapo leisure batteries (shore power usage went from £10pw to £5 pw), which I only found out earlier this year from the manufacturer are good for 85 cycles. Well they've lasted 4 years @ 4-6 weeks per year means I've managed to get about 120 cycles out of them. Doesnt include the multiple times I've forgotten to turn the shore power on & was therefore running off the inverter only with things that shouldnt be eg immersion heater microwave washing machine... Well disguised by the 660W of solar that I added.
But they are totally shot now.

I want at least 600Ah bank, my existing 330Ah isnt big enough. So buying 'cheapo' leisures again I was considering these
https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product/abs-120ah-ampere/ 
now £100 each but were £120 last time I looked which would have been £600 for 5. So not so cheap.

So after seeing this thread these http://solarwindturbinebatteries.co.uk/products-page/new-cells-ipzsepzshpsz-2v-cells/4-pzs-et460-2-volt-460ah-c5-506ah-c10-500ah-c20-565ah-c100-duplicate/
at £105 each for 2000 cycles 670Ah total £630 vs the 'cheapo' leisures for 500 cycles 600Ah total £600 (ok now £500) seems like a no brainer.

Just waiting on an answer from them about charging them, I know my solar can do the required voltage, can be programmed up to 17V (660W solar 4 panels, 2 MPPT controllers 30A Tracer BN 3215) But my Mastervolt charger I think max is 14.4V.

Found a data sheet here, looks like another brand but charging could be similar:

http://www.ritarpower.com/upimg/201662802812390.pdf

A google search on 'opzs battery forum' or 'pzs battery forum' turns up some topics from across the web.

BTW why the need for 600Ah? Seems a lot for 4-6 weeks of off grid use per year? I s'pose another option is 6 Trojans to give 12V at ~690Ah, costing around £720ish if they're £120 each...

Edited by smileypete
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That makes no sense. You seem to be saying that if I'm only out for 4 weeks a year then I should have a battery bank too small to meet my needs. But if I'm permanently off grid then it's ok to have a battery bank big enough. As if somehow when I'm on holiday I should have to go without electricity.

Edited by Ssscrudddy
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I am not sure that is what  Pete is saying.

600Ah seems an awful lot to me for a holiday boat as well. It all depends where the 600Ah came from - guess , advice, or sensible calculation.

Remember that the larger the bank the longer you can go between charging BUT the longer it will take to fully recharge. Really, in my view, you should look at the recharge time for your use of the boat first and from there  work out how you ensure your consumption is balanced by the available charge. That should also give you a fair idea of the optimum bank size.

Fitting a huge bank is fine as long as you keep it as near fully charges as you can but if you regularly use it to stay a day or two without charging then there is every chance you will never fully charge it while away from shore power and thus suffer sulphation, not to mention deeper discharges than may be best fro the batteries.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 hour ago, Ssscrudddy said:

That makes no sense. You seem to be saying that if I'm only out for 4 weeks a year then I should have a battery bank too small to meet my needs. But if I'm permanently off grid then it's ok to have a battery bank big enough. As if somehow when I'm on holiday I should have to go without electricity.

Is 600Ah a guesstimate or from a power audit/budget?

Maybe get 4 reasonable leisures ('el cheapos' but not 'el cheapest') and add a couple later if need be. For about 4 years life with occasional off grid that works out about £400 for 4 years or about £100/yr, not too bad.

Sure, Trojans or tractions work out a fraction of the cost long term, but there's the time and aggro and charging equipment needed to protect that investment - maybe not worth it unless off grid 24/365. Also don't forget that reasonable leisure batts should handle the odd discharge to 20 or 30% SoC no problem.

 

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

However, I take OP’s point. Assuming he’s done the calculations for DoD and recharge time for the bank what difference does it make whether it’s liveaboard or holiday?

For holiday you can trade off deeper discharges for some cycle life, assuming any extra charge time isn't a problem in the short term.

Edited by smileypete
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59 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Remember that the larger the bank the longer you can go between charging BUT the longer it will take to fully recharge. Really, in my view, you should look at the recharge time for your use of the boat first and from there  work out how you ensure your consumption is balanced by the available charge. That should also give you a fair idea of the optimum bank size.

Depends on the rating of the charging source. All lead acid batteries take around 24 hours to fully charge from flat. 

Ideally the charging source should be rated at 25% of battery capacity, so around 150 amps for a 600Ah battery. 

Edited by cuthound
Spillung
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