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Lucas 2v Traction Batteries ??


Richard10002

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These seem like good value if they are as good as the 2V traction batteries that some people here talk about:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/3-PZS-345L-4.14KW-Off-Grid-Battery-3PZS345L-P10651.html

 

Roughly the same capacity as 4 x Trojan T105s, for about the same money - seems like a no brainer if you have the space??

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Ive only had a quick look at these, but the specs (cycle life) looks similar to semi-tractions like Trojans rather than that of real proper Tractions. Might be a nice alternative to Trojans (if the price works out ok) as its less cells to manage, but not sure they are in the same league as real proper tractions.

................Dave

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17 hours ago, wiltshirewonderer said:

Looks a good price. Also worth checking out these, the larger sizes are also a very good deal: http://solarwindturbinebatteries.co.uk/products-page/new-cells-ipzsepzshpsz-2v-cells/

That's where I bought mine from, watering kit as well. Paul was a great help.

9 hours ago, WotEver said:

924Ah for £690. Pretty good deal. 

Same as I installed.

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18 hours ago, wiltshirewonderer said:

Looks a good price. Also worth checking out these, the larger sizes are also a very good deal: http://solarwindturbinebatteries.co.uk/products-page/new-cells-ipzsepzshpsz-2v-cells/

Their Trojan T105s are good value at £115 and free delivery to a business address.

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I think my rough and ready batt selection guide may apply here... as follows:

Does the user have a genuine lasting interest in batts and batt charging?

No? - Fit reasonable el cheapos

Yes? - They probably already know what batts are best for them.

btw 95% of people probably belong in the first category. :) 

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16 minutes ago, smileypete said:

I think my rough and ready batt selection guide may apply here... as follows:

Does the user have a genuine lasting interest in batts and batt charging?

No? - Fit reasonable el cheapos

 

Ah now this is where it gets difficult doesn't it?

For those not wanting to stump up for Trojans, buying 'reasonable' batteries is a bit like buying wine - the only parameter available to go on is the price. And in my limited experience of el cheapos they are all the same battery, only the price and the label changes. I bought a pair a few weeks ago and they were identical in every detail to the dead ones they replaced except for the label. The label was applied by the retailer while I waited to anonymous batteries taken from a pallet stacked with them. The retailer offered me a choice of two different brands one a little more expensive than the other. I chose the cheap one but on going out the back to watch him test the voltage on 'my' new ones I only saw one pallet of blank batteries so wonder if I'd have got the same battery with a different label had I chosen the slightly more expensive option.

What 12v 110ah battery would you recommend as a reasonable el cheapo?

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On 10/12/2017 at 01:03, Richard10002 said:

These seem like good value if they are as good as the 2V traction batteries that some people here talk about:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/3-PZS-345L-4.14KW-Off-Grid-Battery-3PZS345L-P10651.html

 

Roughly the same capacity as 4 x Trojan T105s, for about the same money - seems like a no brainer if you have the space??

 

From your link:

They are also resistant to vibrations, have a lower battery temperature and consume 75 % less water and 15% less energy

That's a brave claim to make. Do full tractions really require 15% less energy to charge them?

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I've been through the mill of batteries over the past 5 or 6 years.

Apr 2012-April 2013 3 x 110Ah el cheapos for £210

May 2013 - May 2015 3 x Varta Hobby 110Ah for £300

June 2015 to date 4 x Trojan T105 for £400.

The T105s had reduced to half capacity by early this year - my charging regime was a bit like MtBs, use them to 50% SoC over 3 or 4 days, then charge to 100%. We now know that this is a recipe for disaster, and would be better suited to el cheapos, rather than the more expensive ones :(

A few months ago, smileypete, (I think), suggested I get some, (meaningful), solar, and try and eke out the Trojans, or even see if they could be revived.

By charging daily when on board, and a full charge before leaving for a few days, I've kept the Trojans going, and their capacity has remained at around 225Ah, (original capacity 450Ah).

I fitted 490W of solar in early September and a Tracer MPPT controller, and this seems to be providing some meaningful energy, rather than the trickle charging of my previous 100w panel through a PWM controller. I appreciate there will be limited benefit until March or April next year after this month.

I think the Trojans have had it, and it would be good to have 400Ah of battery bank again. So I am soon to spend about £360 on 4 x el cheapo 110Ah Numax, (or similar).

Then I think perhaps it could be worth buying a better brand again and trying Varta Hobby 110Ah at £115 each, i.e. £460, and it isnt much of a leap to think about buying 400Ah of 2V batteries for just under £500.

If my newly found charging regime, coupled with the new solar, does the trick, a good set of batteries could last forever :) , (or not :( )

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3 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

If my newly found charging regime, coupled with the new solar, does the trick, a good set of batteries could last forever :) , (or not :( )

 

I've had 560W of solar for three years and that made not a jot of difference. The damage gets done in the four winter months when the solar doesn't work. 

My solar has just failed this week. Until this week it topped up that batteries to 100% (according to the lying SG) during the day while I'm out at work. This last few days I come back to the boat to see the SG claiming less and less. Batteries only 70% SoC on return from work on Friday having been falling a little each day.

Now the Whispergen *might* fix this but I now have doubts. It runs for half an hour then shuts off with an overheat error, during which time the 2kW of rads heat the boat to an oven-like temperature. If I arrange to dump the excess heat into the skin tank to make it run for the hours at a time needed to charge the batteries properly I'm concerned the fuel consumption might be astronomical. This battery thing seems almost unsolveable. Huh....

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I'm not expecting the solar to do the whole of the job. Unlike you, when I'm on board for my 3 or 4 days a week, I can run the generator or engine during the day. 2 or 3 hours of charging each day, plus whatever the solar might contribute, then a good 4 or 5 hours on a Sunday, before I go home for a few days, has been seeming to maintain the status quo for a few months.

Given that I seem to be able to get at least a couple of years out of batteries now, the difference between £360 for "reasonable el cheapos, (Numax??), and £500 for Lucas 2v traction, is about £1.50 a week. If I can get them to last for several more years, it's a good decision. Having said that, if I can get 4 Trojans for £460, I might lean that way, given that it would be a straight swap, and I wouldn't have to mess about with location and wiring.

I'll wake up one morning, make a call one way or the other, and I have no idea what that might be right now :)

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2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I'm not expecting the solar to do the whole of the job. Unlike you, when I'm on board for my 3 or 4 days a week, I can run the generator or engine during the day. 2 or 3 hours of charging each day, plus whatever the solar might contribute, then a good 4 or 5 hours on a Sunday, before I go home for a few days, has been seeming to maintain the status quo for a few months.

Given that I seem to be able to get at least a couple of years out of batteries now, the difference between £360 for "reasonable el cheapos, (Numax??), and £500 for Lucas 2v traction, is about £1.50 a week. If I can get them to last for several more years, it's a good decision. Having said that, if I can get 4 Trojans for £460, I might lean that way, given that it would be a straight swap, and I wouldn't have to mess about with location and wiring.

I'll wake up one morning, make a call one way or the other, and I have no idea what that might be right now :)

 

Another thought. 

I dunno about you but I find that although a battery set farks itself in short order, once it has fallen to about 50% of original capacity it seems to stop degrading. My set of Trojanoids seems to be much the same capacity now as it was a year ago after the initial rapid degradation. 

Maybe I just need to add another four and let them degrade too, then I can abuse the whole bank with impunity and still have a 400ah of capacity. 

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14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Another thought. 

I dunno about you but I find that although a battery set farks itself in short order, once it has fallen to about 50% of original capacity it seems to stop degrading. My set of Trojanoids seems to be much the same capacity now as it was a year ago after the initial rapid degradation. 

Maybe I just need to add another four and let them degrade too, then I can abuse the whole bank with impunity and still have a 400ah of capacity. 

I've seen you say that before. It could be the case with mine, (4 x proper Trojan T105), as they have held up at about 225Ah capacity for the best part of a year now.

Having said that, my charging regime has changed during that to time, to daily, and a big charge weekly, and now a reasonable chunk of solar.... so it could be that, once we see our capacity decimated, we start to look after them better :)

 

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21 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What 12v 110ah battery would you recommend as a reasonable el cheapo?

Something along the lines of Numax (or their sub brands), Varta, etc? Maybe ask the batt supplier, who as said may even label up the batts. :)

Or find out what a local hire fleet uses, they're not likely to use the cheapest barrel scrapings and risk callouts. They may even be able to help cut a trade discount at their supplier.

 

6 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

I've seen you say that before. It could be the case with mine, (4 x proper Trojan T105), as they have held up at about 225Ah capacity for the best part of a year now.

Having said that, my charging regime has changed during that to time, to daily, and a big charge weekly, and now a reasonable chunk of solar.... so it could be that, once we see our capacity decimated, we start to look after them better :)

 

If the Trojans were difficult to charge well enough to maintain capacity, the full tractions are likely to be even more onerous in terms of charging. Might get away with it for light use, but on the other hand...

Remember that although the el cheapos work out more expensive per cycle in the long term, in return they're easier to charge and less costly to abuse. :o

If there's plentiful solar and a genuine interest in restoring batt capacity of the existing Trojans, one option is to run off a couple in summer while attempting undo the winter sulphation on the other two, but it's too late in the year for that now...

Edited by smileypete
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22 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 It could be the case with mine, (4 x proper Trojan T105), as they have held up at about 225Ah capacity for the best part of a year now.

This is interesting - I've often wondered how to assess the remaining capacity of our four lead acid batteries.  In the past I've used a Sterling battery tester to check condition, but this is only really a good test of cranking ability, and doesn't tell me what capacity is 'left' in the batteries.

We've got four 110 Ah batteries, and cruise daily for around four hours. The engine-driven alternator is rated at 70 amps (max). After four hours the output to the batteries reduces to around 3 amps, telling me that they're near full charge. We have 200 W of solar through an MPPT controller too (for sunny days !). Overnight we use around 50 Ah (according to our Victron BMV unit). When the batteries were new, the voltage would fall to say 12.4 v overnight, now after some 100 discharge cycles (100 days), the voltage by the morning falls to around 11.8v, which I know is not helping.

How do I test to ascertain the remaining capacity of the batteries ?

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Having ensure the alternator ends the charging cycle at around 14.4 volts keep the  engine running at charging speed until that charge stabilises for at least an hour and I would  cover the solar so it can not give a false high battery voltage reading.

Zero the amp hour counter and next morning use the RESTED/RESTING voltage reading to asses state of charge.

11.8 volts = 30% charge left so whatever the amp hour counter is reading is 70% of the battery capacity. From that you can work out the actual capacity (Ah/70 X 100) (I think).

I suspect the solar voltage may be suggesting to you the batteries are better charged than they really are during the day.

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Thanks Tony - that test makes a lot of sense. Do I also take it that you're suggesting that the solar panels could be 'fooling' the alternator into a lower output.  If so, wouldn't it be prudent to disconnect/cover the panels whilst charging with the engine running ?

I guess an alternative is to invest in an alternator 'controller', to help overcome the higher voltage issue. 

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30 minutes ago, Rustonick said:

How do I test to ascertain the remaining capacity of the batteries ?

Two methods, depending upon what equipment you have. Obviously both start with a fully charged battery that has been allowed to rest for at least an hour.

1. Arrange a steady (but adjustable load) load (halogen lights etc) to 10% of the batteries original capacity. Discharge for up to 10 hours, taking specific gravity and voltage readings every hour initially and every 30 minutes once voltage has dripped to 1.9 volts per cell. Also increase load back to 10% of original capacity to compensate for the falling voltage. Stop discharging when volts drop to 1.85 volts per cell and calculate the actual battery capacity discharged. Note on a healthy battery this test can take up to10 hours.

2. If you have a shunt based battery monitor that calculated Ah out and a Smartgauge,  you can discharge from 100% SoC to 50% SoC. Look at how many Ah have been discharged,  double it and that is your presentation to capacity. (You can do this test to a higher SoC say from 100% to 80% and multiply the discharged capacity by 5, but it will be less accurate).

Whichever test you use,  IMMEDIATELY recharge the batteries on completion of the discharge test,  and don't stop until the battery is fully charged again. If you don't you will damage the battery.

Both tests will be at the cost of ultimate battery life. 

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1 hour ago, Rustonick said:

This is interesting - I've often wondered how to assess the remaining capacity of our four lead acid batteries.  In the past I've used a Sterling battery tester to check condition, but this is only really a good test of cranking ability, and doesn't tell me what capacity is 'left' in the batteries.

We've got four 110 Ah batteries, and cruise daily for around four hours. The engine-driven alternator is rated at 70 amps (max). After four hours the output to the batteries reduces to around 3 amps, telling me that they're near full charge. We have 200 W of solar through an MPPT controller too (for sunny days !). Overnight we use around 50 Ah (according to our Victron BMV unit). When the batteries were new, the voltage would fall to say 12.4 v overnight, now after some 100 discharge cycles (100 days), the voltage by the morning falls to around 11.8v, which I know is not helping.

How do I test to ascertain the remaining capacity of the batteries ?

What make and type are they out of interest? At a guess they are 'sealed for life' leisures (calciums).

Edited by smileypete
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1 minute ago, smileypete said:

What make and type are they out of interest? At a guess they are 'sealed for life' leisures (calciums).

Yes - they're sealed for life 'maintenance free' leisure lead acid. Bothers me sometimes that I can't 'get into them' to check electrolyte levels or check charge with a hydrometer,  but the manufacturers must know what they're doing !

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2 minutes ago, Rustonick said:

Yes - they're sealed for life 'maintenance free' leisure lead acid. Bothers me sometimes that I can't 'get into them' to check electrolyte levels or check charge with a hydrometer,  but the manufacturers must know what they're doing !

OK, what make/brand are they?

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