Hello and Brokers

[MichaelG]

Hello, my name is Michael and new to the forum although not really new to boating. I've owned several fibreglass cruisers over the years but never a narrowboat. My only experience of narrowboats is from hiring. The thing is I am looking to buy a narrowboat within the next year and use it for leisure for a year or two while still working. I will be retiring in March 2020 and the intent is to rent the house out and go cruising for a few years so the boat will have to be a suitable liveaboard.

I am thinking size wise 55 - 65 feet, I know the larger end of that scale may limit navigation slightly to a few sections of canal. Age wise I would like less than ten years old but pretty flexible on age if the boat is right. The budget is a maximum of £70k.

Here's the thing though, I have been looking online at the various brokers and many seem to price their boats at what look to me to be pretty speculative prices. 

I would be interested to hear any experience people have buying from brokers, in particular if you have found brokers price boats at high levels in order to build in room for buyers to negotiate the price down. 

[Athy]

Welcome to CWDF, Michael.

With that budget you should have a wide range of boats to choose from - and yes, prices are often negotiable, just as they are with houses.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Athy

[Nightwatch]

Once again welcome Michael.

I have to 'ditto' Athys comments above. You do get realistically priced boats on sale and some ambitious pricing.

At the end of the day,only you know what price you are prepared to pay for a particular vessel. A good surveyor could advise on values.

[cuthound]

At present the we are in the grips of a seller's market.

Good boats in your price range sell quickly, however when you find the boat of your dreams it is worth putting in an offer, subjust to survey. If it is rejected you can always up your offer.

I did this when buying my current boat 3 years ago and had to increase my offer to complete the sale. Still got £5k off though.

Edited October 5, 2017 by cuthound
Spillung

[magictime]

43 minutes ago, MichaelG said:

I am thinking size wise 55 - 65 feet, I know the larger end of that scale may limit navigation slightly to a few sections of canal.

It's more than few sections of canal, and considerably more than a slight limitation on navigation. At 65ft you'd be ruling out all the routes over the Pennines (L&L above Wigan, Rochdale and C&H, Huddersfield) as well the Rufford branch and hence the Lancaster, the Sheffield and South Yorkshire, and the Ouse/Ure/Ripon Canal above York. You could come up the Trent to cruise the A&C and visit York, but other than that most of the northern system is going to be out of reach.

On pricing: prices have risen lately and so some of the prices you're seeing might not be as speculative as they first appear, but I think there's still often room for negotiation. With your budget you should be fine.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, MichaelG said:

Snip

I am thinking size wise 55 - 65 feet, I know the larger end of that scale may limit navigation slightly to a few sections of canal. Age wise I would like less than ten years old but pretty flexible on age if the boat is right. The budget is a maximum of £70k.

Snip

I am not sure that you mean what the highlighted section says. Yes the longer lengths may stop you cruising some to the northern waterways but you will still have the vast majority of the system available to you.

[magictime]

Well, there you go; I say you're understating the limits imposed by a longer boat, Tony Brooks says you're overstating them!

Yes, I suppose you will still have 'the vast majority of the system' available to you even if you never head over the Pennines or up the Lancaster, but the Yorkshire and Lancashire waterways are something special IMHO and should not be dismissed lightly!

[Nightwatch]

Having just done the Leeds Liverpool canal last year I can only agree that it's a lovely canal.

[MichaelG]

Hi Tony, I see what you mean, my wording was a bit ambiguous, what I meant was I realise the larger length would prevent me accessing some sections of the system not that it would limit me to a very small area. I know 57 feet is pretty much the universally quoted go anywhere size.  

[magictime]

1 minute ago, MichaelG said:

Hi Tony, I see what you mean, my wording was a bit ambiguous 

Oops, yes - I can see what Tony was saying now! I read it as meaning what you intended it to mean. You were talking about being 'slightly' limited after all, which would be an odd way to talk about being limited to just a few stretches!

[David Schweizer]

2 hours ago, MichaelG said:

Hello, my name is Michael and new to the forum although not really new to boating. I've owned several fibreglass cruisers over the years but never a narrowboat. My only experience of narrowboats is from hiring. The thing is I am looking to buy a narrowboat within the next year and use it for leisure for a year or two while still working. I will be retiring in March 2020 and the intent is to rent the house out and go cruising for a few years so the boat will have to be a suitable liveaboard.

I am thinking size wise 55 - 65 feet, I know the larger end of that scale may limit navigation slightly to a few sections of canal. Age wise I would like less than ten years old but pretty flexible on age if the boat is right. The budget is a maximum of £70k.

Here's the thing though, I have been looking online at the various brokers and many seem to price their boats at what look to me to be pretty speculative prices. 

I would be interested to hear any experience people have buying from brokers, in particular if you have found brokers price boats at high levels in order to build in room for buyers to negotiate the price down. 

I have only sold through a broker, but can recommend Braunston Marina, here:- http://www.braunstonmarina.co.uk/find-a-boat They were thoroughly proffessional thoughout the sale, keeping us regularly informed of any interest etc. I also got the impression that, whilst they are clearly working for the seller, they also took ino account any points raised by potential purchasers. They will accept sensible offers, but as they tend to price their boats quite conservatively, there is only limited room for price negotiation.

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I have only sold through a broker, but can recommend Braunston Marina, here:- http://www.braunstonmarina.co.uk/find-a-boat They were thoroughly proffessional thoughout the sale, keeping us regularly informed of any interest etc. I also got the impression that, whilst they are clearly working for the seller, they also took ino account any points raised by potential purchasers. They will accept sensible offers, but as they tend to price their boats quite conservatively, there is only limited room for price negotiation.

Likewise, I have sold through a broker in Nottingham (forget it) and through ABNB (excellent, but again sensibly priced so not too much scope for discounts).

[Phil Ambrose]

To be honest, a 57 footer makes a comfortable home for a couple of continuous cruisers.

Phil 

[Neil2]

3 hours ago, MichaelG said:

Hello, my name is Michael and new to the forum although not really new to boating. I've owned several fibreglass cruisers over the years but never a narrowboat. My only experience of narrowboats is from hiring. The thing is I am looking to buy a narrowboat within the next year and use it for leisure for a year or two while still working. I will be retiring in March 2020 and the intent is to rent the house out and go cruising for a few years so the boat will have to be a suitable liveaboard.

I am thinking size wise 55 - 65 feet, I know the larger end of that scale may limit navigation slightly to a few sections of canal. Age wise I would like less than ten years old but pretty flexible on age if the boat is right. The budget is a maximum of £70k.

Here's the thing though, I have been looking online at the various brokers and many seem to price their boats at what look to me to be pretty speculative prices. 

I would be interested to hear any experience people have buying from brokers, in particular if you have found brokers price boats at high levels in order to build in room for buyers to negotiate the price down. 

Michael - Think about it, pretty much every narrowboat is a one - off and pricing is a much more complex business than with say a grp cruiser with a high production run where it's mainly age that determines the value.  When you consider the variables that affect narrowboat pricing, type of boat, age, builders name, type of engine, transmission, heating, internal layout, window type, etc etc you see that you do need a fair grasp of the market before you can start to make sense of it.  And it changes over time and with the seasons, for example a walk through bathroom was once a big negative but now everyone seems to want one, ditto the "reverse" layout.       

Having said this, the market at the moment is just crazy, and almost anything that still floats is £20k.   I spoke to a boatyard owner just the other day and he said they had never thought of getting into selling boats but it's so easy at the moment to buy a "sinker" do it up and make a decent profit they can't resist it.  But the entire spectrum is affected by the clamour to get on the waterways.  It is certainly a very bad time to be buying your first narrowboat.

All in all I would resist every temptation to get into the market at the moment, the current situation can't last so instead use this time to go and look at a lot, an awful lot, of boats.  You'll get a good idea that way of what influences price.  In this respect don't be afraid to be up front with brokers, generally speaking if they are sure you aren't a "tyre kicker" they will be very patient but the problem is there are a lot of folk looking at boats these days who don't actually have the money, usually because they still have a house to sell.  Brokers are understandably a bit wary of people looking at expensive boats.           

Being an active member of this forum can shorten the learning process considerably and if there's one thing we like on here it's spending other people's money..!

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 a walk through bathroom was once a big negative but now everyone seems to want one, ditto the "reverse" layout.       

 

No thanks, and no thanks.

Apart from that, your post makes a great deal of sense.

[Tony Brooks]

We could happily live on our 54ft cruiser stern but the stern and well deck are shorter than most and there is only a small "chain locker" in front of the well deck. I think it has as much space as a 57ft more conventional boat so as advised spend time to look at a lot of boats, even those that on paper/screen do not look like contenders.

[NB Lola]

Welcome again.  55-57 should get you round most so long as your boat width is 6’10” or thereabouts.

Our boat is 57ft and meets our needs but you might love it or hate it, Boat’s are like marmite.

Enjoy the forum and please remember we are wide bunch with varying views and attitudes, a pinch of salt often helps.

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, NB Lola said:

Welcome again.  55-57 should get you round most so long as your boat width is 6’10” or thereabouts.

Our boat is 57ft and meets our needs but you might love it or hate it, Boat’s are like marmite.

 

No they are not. Check these photos of some Marmite, and of a boat:

 

 

 

COMPLETELY different, I'm sure you'll agree....

 

[NB Lola]

[magictime]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

Likewise, I have sold through a broker in Nottingham (forget it) and through ABNB (excellent, but again sensibly priced so not too much scope for discounts).

Really? I've always had the impression ABNB price quite high... Or maybe that they specialise in more 'up market' boats.

For what it's worth, the price we paid privately for our boat was £7k below the marketing price ABNB had told the vendor they'd put on it.

3 hours ago, Neil2 said:

 

Having said this, the market at the moment is just crazy...  It is certainly a very bad time to be buying your first narrowboat.

All in all I would resist every temptation to get into the market at the moment, the current situation can't last 

I wouldn't (and didn't) count on it. In fact I'm quite glad to have bought this year in case prices keep rising.

Edited October 5, 2017 by magictime

[The Grumpy Triker]

7 hours ago, MichaelG said:

Hello, my name is Michael and new to the forum although not really new to boating. I've owned several fibreglass cruisers over the years but never a narrowboat. My only experience of narrowboats is from hiring. The thing is I am looking to buy a narrowboat within the next year and use it for leisure for a year or two while still working. I will be retiring in March 2020 and the intent is to rent the house out and go cruising for a few years so the boat will have to be a suitable liveaboard.

I am thinking size wise 55 - 65 feet, I know the larger end of that scale may limit navigation slightly to a few sections of canal. Age wise I would like less than ten years old but pretty flexible on age if the boat is right. The budget is a maximum of £70k.

Here's the thing though, I have been looking online at the various brokers and many seem to price their boats at what look to me to be pretty speculative prices. 

I would be interested to hear any experience people have buying from brokers, in particular if you have found brokers price boats at high levels in order to build in room for buyers to negotiate the price down. 

Hi Michael,

You sound far better prepared than I was recently, although I started looking in February and then ermmm....found the wrong broker, but then found a great team at Swanley Bridge Marina.

Some basic comments:

- It is a sellers market and all prices are inflated....I don't see that changing anytime soon so you may need to have to be prepared for a quick response....so plenty of preparation time.

- On both boats I negotiated an 'In the Water' or 'Pre-Survey' price, & in both instances there was a valid reason for renegotiation. One broker refused to negotiate due to 'Ts&Cs' then, under what advice I couldn't comment, the seller refused to negotiate further. On the second boat the seller took an obstinate stance and played on the 'Sellers Market' status, despite there being about £2,000 of unsuspected work. Due to personal reasons I caved in, much against gut feel, and £5,000 later I now have a boat ready to make my own....no doubt with additional work to do, but she is mine and now the journey starts 

I will be live-aboard from day 1 but the message I have is - Sellers Market = 1 negotiation or be prepared to walk away.

i wish you good luck and with a far healthier budget than mine you should do well 

 

[cuthound]

5 hours ago, Neil2 said:

Michael - Think about it, pretty much every narrowboat is a one - off and pricing is a much more complex business than with say a grp cruiser with a high production run where it's mainly age that determines the value.  When you consider the variables that affect narrowboat pricing, type of boat, age, builders name, type of engine, transmission, heating, internal layout, window type, etc etc you see that you do need a fair grasp of the market before you can start to make sense of it.  And it changes over time and with the seasons, for example a walk through bathroom was once a big negative but now everyone seems to want one, ditto the "reverse" layout.       

Having said this, the market at the moment is just crazy, and almost anything that still floats is £20k.   I spoke to a boatyard owner just the other day and he said they had never thought of getting into selling boats but it's so easy at the moment to buy a "sinker" do it up and make a decent profit they can't resist it.  But the entire spectrum is affected by the clamour to get on the waterways.  It is certainly a very bad time to be buying your first narrowboat.

All in all i would resist every temptation to get into the market today at the moment, the current situation can't last so instead use this time to go and look at a lot, an awful lot, of boats.  You'll get a good idea that way of what influences price.  In this respect don't be afraid to be up front with brokers, generally speaking if they are sure you aren't a "tyre kicker" they will be very patient but the problem is there are a lot of folk looking at boats these days who don't actually have the money, usually because they still have a house to sell.  Brokers are understandably a bit wary of people looking at expensive boats.           

Being an active member of this forum can shorten the learning process considerably and if there's one thing we like on here it's spending other people's money.

Whilst I agree with most of the above, I disagree with the section I have highlighted.

The current sellers market has lasted for three years now, and is driven by:

1. Several boatbuilders have retired, died or gone bust,  meaning fewer new narrowboats bring built.

2. More new widebeams are now being built than narrowboats. 

3. More people than ever are buying narrowboats, driven by high housing prices, several canal related TV programmes and low interest rates/easy access to pension  funds.

Together these factors have created the "perfect storm" for rising demand and thus high prices, and I don't see anything on the horizon to change that. Indeed if the economy ever picks up,  I think it will drive prices even higher.

Edited October 5, 2017 by cuthound

[The Grumpy Triker]

2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

No they are not. Check these photos of some Marmite, and of a boat:

 

 

 

COMPLETELY different, I'm sure you'll agree....

 

Is it just me or do you wonder how the boat got in ....the width behind the stern looks too narrow to get that width boat through! Is it. Lock parking spot? 

Hate to say but I love marmite and I love boats but to me, boats are like marmite!....try licking yours after dropping your nice freshly prepped piece of 'marmite on toast' on the roof whilst trying to get in a lock! 

Edited October 5, 2017 by The Grumpy Triker
Missed word Marmite

[Boat&Bikes]

12 minutes ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

Is it just me or do you wonder how the boat got in ....the width behind the stern looks too narrow to get that width boat through! Is it. Lock parking spot? 

Hate to say but I love marmite and I love boats but to me, boats are like marmite!....try licking yours after dropping your nice freshly prepped piece of 'marmite on toast' on the roof whilst trying to get in a lock! 

Think your looking at a lock beam as a lock wall...

Ian.

[The Grumpy Triker]

14 minutes ago, The Grumpy Triker said:

Is it just me or do you wonder how the boat got in ....the width behind the stern looks too narrow to get that width boat through! Is it. Lock parking spot? 

Hate to say but I love marmite and I love boats but to me, boats are like marmite!....try licking yours after dropping your nice freshly prepped piece of 'marmite on toast' on the roof whilst trying to get in a lock! 

Colouring makes it look like a stepped in lock wall ....hence the   thought it was a great shot for confusing people