Full displacement underwater profile

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, babylek said:

How is it people can just turn up and hire boats on the French canals, and I'd need a ICC?

Hire boaters don't own the boat -a boat owner has to meet certain regulations - as previously said - it is nothing like owning a boat in the UK

 

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

If however you buy a boat in Spain ie a Spanish Flagged vessel, then you will need to go through all the hoops their skippers require - and I think that means getting a yachtmaster equiv qualification which has to be passed in Spanish (includes a written paper). There will be similar requirements in France if the boat is French registered. As Alan says, you cannot just 'turn up' and own a boat.

 

 

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[babylek]

Thanks, I'll take a look.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Athy said:

I too have wondered about this example of French official logic at work!

There was a story (some years ago) in the British 'lumpy-water' magazines regarding a couple who sailed over to France, to cut a long story short - they were refused permission to leave as they did not have a sextant on board, despite arguing they had two totally separate GPS / battery systems and did not  know how to use a sextant they were refused permission.

They 'went into town' purchased a 'cardboard training sextant', back to the boat, provided evidence of a sextant onboard and off they went.

 

France - a lovely country, only spoiled by the inhabitants.

[babylek]

Haha Thanks for the story.

[Tam & Di]

24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Hire boaters don't own the boat -a boat owner has to meet certain regulations - as previously said - it is nothing like owning a boat in the UK

This is not quite the case - we are talking of the steerer's qualification, not the condition of the boat. All steerers with a boat over 7m must hold a certificate of competence. However the French are very pragmatic and the regulations say that a hire company will instruct a person hiring their vessel and issue them a temporary certificate for the local area. Inspections are now becoming fairly frequent and if the steerer does not have the necessary paperwork for himself and his craft the boat will generally be "arrested" until matters are put right. "Matters" might be a fine for use of red diesel, getting the correct number of up-to-date life jackets, a valid VHF user's certificate, a vignette (effectively the licence for the boat to be on any particular waterway) and a myriad of other things.

[babylek]

How many licenses do you need in France?

[Dr Bob]

9 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

This is not quite the case - we are talking of the steerer's qualification, not the condition of the boat. All steerers with a boat over 7m must hold a certificate of competence. However the French are very pragmatic and the regulations say that a hire company will instruct a person hiring their vessel and issue them a temporary certificate for the local area. Inspections are now becoming fairly frequent and if the steerer does not have the necessary paperwork for himself and his craft the boat will generally be "arrested" until matters are put right. "Matters" might be a fine for use of red diesel, getting the correct number of up-to-date life jackets, a valid VHF user's certificate, a vignette (effectively the licence for the boat to be on any particular waterway) and a myriad of other things.

In Spain, if you bought a Spanish flagged boat 10 years ago, you needed the equiv of a yachtmaster qualification and that qualification meant a theory exam and a practical exam both done in Spanish.  Having a british ICC was not good enough. Few Brits owned spanish flagged boats. I do not know what the equiv in France was (is) and whether having a UK generated ICC will aid getting the required qualification - but at minimum you would need a british ICC. It would be interesting to hear from a Brit who has bought a French flagged boat what is needed.

10 years ago you could get an ICC if you had yachtmaster/coastal skipper. IIRC we got ours by getting the commodore of the yacht club to sign a form saying we were both yachtmasters and competent. Yachtmaster/coastal skipper did take a bit of experience to get.

As Alan says in a previous note, in a few years, having a British flagged boat which is the best way round all the regulations (as they are far more lax if you are British Flagged) is going to be a nightmare as we leave Europe. Again if I remember rightly, US flagged boats could only stay in EU for a limited time and then if they stayed and became registered in Eu they had to pay the VAT on the boat (even if sales tax had been paid outside EU). After Brexit, will a UK boat that has paid VAT still be liable to pay VAT if it stays in another Eu country?

Choosing which country in which to buy a boat is going to be more difficult. Perhaps this isnt the best forum to get info on this. The YBW forum is probably a better source of information if you are going to do any coastal Eu sailing.

[RLWP]

56 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

They 'went into town' purchased a 'cardboard training sextant', back to the boat, provided evidence of a sextant onboard and off they went.

They aren't expensive anyway, mine cost me £10

Richard

[babylek]

So if I buy a boat in France I will need an ICC, Proof of VAT being paid, Proof of purchase, Proof of Insurance, and a Radio license, but as I'm British will the boat be UK flagged or French?

[Tam & Di]

An International Certificate of Competence (ICC) serves for sea going craft with endorsement via a test of the COLREGS and inland craft with test for knowledge of CEVNI. These are generally accepted throughout the EC countries now, but limits may be placed on their acceptance by the country you visit and e.g. Germany only accepts an inland ICC for craft to 20m. It is no longer possible to get the Commodor of your club to give you one in exchange for a G&T, but the test is simple enough anyway.

As far as I am aware all the EC countries accept an inland ICC for appropriate vessels, whatever the flag of the ship.

For small craft (a technical term in this instance, i.e. under 20m) there is not a lot of difference by way of paperwork for craft and steerer between UK and e.g. France except the steerer must have a certificate of competence. You'd still need the equivalent of a boat safety certificate, ship's VHF licence, insurance, etc, though there are some extra ship things like certification on life jackets and fire extinguishers.

This link gives detail of some of the things the OP would need to know:

http://www.bargehandling.com/Bargehandling.com/BARGE_HANDLING_BLOG/Entries/2016/11/4_Certification_for_helmsmen_of_Pleasure_Craft_onInland_Waterwaysin_Europe.html

I'm sure you are right about the problems which will arise if/when UK is no longer part of Europe and the VAT position will become expensive if it reverts to what it was in the 70s.

 

[Dr Bob]

10 minutes ago, babylek said:

So if I buy a boat in France I will need an ICC, Proof of VAT being paid, Proof of purchase, Proof of Insurance, and a Radio license, but as I'm British will the boat be UK flagged or French?

First you must define which flag. If you are buying 2nd hand, then that boat will either be French flagged (ie french registered) or flagged to another country. If you are buying new, then you can choose where to register it and hence it then assumes that countries flag.

If French flagged then you need to find out what the requirements are - it doesnt look like anyone on here has the definitive information. If UK flagged, again you need the exact detail but likely you have the main points. The problem with a UK flagged boat is that although the requirements are probably less than a French boat, once we do Brexit - having a UK flagged boat in Eu may not be as straight forward.

[Tam & Di]

18 minutes ago, babylek said:

 but as I'm British will the boat be UK flagged or French?

Either, or even Dutch or whatever else - depends initially on the registry when you buy it.

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

 

it doesnt look like anyone on here has the definitive information.

?? 

p.s. I am an instructor/examiner for the French licence for steering craft to 40m

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

The problem with a UK flagged boat is that although the requirements are probably less than a French boat, once we do Brexit - having a UK flagged boat in Eu may not be as straight forward.

When we purchased 'The Cat' in Croatia (part of the EU) getting it 'de-registered' was a major undertaking and required attorneys, signed and sealed 'official documents' and only with the approval of the government Minister of Maritime affairs it be released from carrying  the Croatian 'flag'.

Most (UK) boaters do not appreciate the meaning and legal standing of owning a 'flagged' boat.

Copy of our de-registration (with English translation)

Croatian De-Registration.pdf

 

Edit to add : Sticking a 'flag' on the back of your boat does not make it 'flagged'

".......However, once a British boat leaves UK territorial waters and wishes to exercise the freedom of the high seas, it might be called upon by the warships of any nation to demonstrate its right to fly the British flag and, for all practical purposes, this means that the boat needs to be registered and to carry on board the appropriate certificate.

 
A boat’s registration normally comes from either the nationality of the owner, or the country of residency of the owner and once a boat is registered she becomes a floating part of her flag state, and therefore she has to comply with the national requirements regarding training, safety equipment etc.   
In the UK we do not have compulsory training or minimum safety requirements on private pleasure boats.  However, if an unregistered boat goes abroad, and local Customs realise that the boat is not registered then the owner may be fined, or it may be inferred, if he has been in the country long enough, that the boat comes under the jurisdiction of that country and the owner should therefore sit all the relevant training exams, in the local language, and fit the boat out according to the local safety standard......."

 

 

UK REGISTER: 
The register of British Shipping is divided into four parts. 

 Part I is the traditional Register of British Ships, which originated in the sixteenth century.  By the end of the nineteenth century each of the 110 significant ports in the UK had its own register.  By 1986 the administration of the register was drawn into 17 regional centres and by 1994 the entire operation was centralised at the office of the Registrar General of Shipping in Cardiff. 

 Part II is the Register of Fishing Vessels. 

 Part III is the Small Ships Register (SSR) which was originally set up under the 1983 Merchant Shipping Act in response to the demand for a cheap and simple means of registering a boat to sail abroad.  From 1983 to 1991 the SSR was managed by the RYA, from 1991 to 1996 by the DVLA at Swansea and since 1996 by the Registrar General at Cardiff. 

 Part IV was created by the 1993 Merchant Shipping Act to enable foreign owned ships used as bare-boat charters by British companies to be British registered and fly the British flag for the duration of the charter. 
British pleasure boats are eligible to register on either Part I or on Part III (SSR).   
A boat may only be on one Register at a time, regardless of whether it is on the British Register or under foreign registration.   

Edited October 3, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[Phil Ambrose]

Nobody has mentioned obtaining a Shengen visa, I imagine this is still required 

Phil 

[Alan de Enfield]

The OP didn't like the answers so has bugg****D off and started a new thread asking the same question

[Phil Ambrose]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The OP didn't like the answers so has bugg****D off and started a new thread asking the same question

Shock, horror, am I surprised?...........no.

Phil

[Tam & Di]

TROLL alert       

[Murflynn]

   oh dear, I think we've all forgotten to act like fluffy bunnies towards new posters, to make them feel welcome - the rule is to tell them what they want to hear and make them happy for a day or three.  

please - no more Mr Wise Guy with underpants on outside your trousers!    

[Athy]

17 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

   oh dear, I think we've all forgotten to act like fluffy bunnies towards new posters, to make them feel welcome - the rule is to tell them what they want to hear and make them happy for a day or three.  

please - no more Mr Wise Guy with underpants on outside your trousers!    

It's not a rule, but it is pleasanter to be welcoming to new members - did you not find that when you first joined? As you have been in our midst for three years ago I presume that you were happy with the way in which you were received.

I didn't know that trolls wore their Y-fronts outside their trousers.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Athy

[Momac]

4 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Nobody has mentioned obtaining a Shengen visa, I imagine this is still required 

Phil 

i think if you are a UK citizen a visa  is not required unless  you want to stay longer than 90 days in any six month period? 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/who-needs-schengen-visa/

Even then not sure anything is required while we are still in the EU.

 

.

 

[Murflynn]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

It's not a rule, but it is pleasanter to be welcoming to new members - did you not find that when you first joined? As you have been in our midst for three years ago I presume that you were happy with the way in which you were received.

I didn't know that trolls wore their Y-fronts outside their trousers.

I've been here since 2005 actually, but the famous site crew were unable to reset my membership when I changed my email address.  

Why are you reacting over-sensitively?  No-one has been cruel or scathing towards the OP - they have all tried to provide helpful information but it seems the truth isn't what he wanted to hear.  

Perhaps you would like to clarify your reference to 'trolls' while we're at it.

[Athy]

3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

I've been here since 2005 actually, but the famous site crew were unable to reset my membership when I changed my email address.  

t.

Ah, i did not realise that.

3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

 

Why are you reacting over-sensitively? 

I am not. 

3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

.  

Perhaps you would like to clarify your reference to 'trolls' while we're at it.

 Perhaps I would not.

[Phil Ambrose]

3 hours ago, Murflynn said:

I've been here since 2005 actually, but the famous site crew were unable to reset my membership when I changed my email address.  

Why are you reacting over-sensitively?  No-one has been cruel or scathing towards the OP - they have all tried to provide helpful information but it seems the truth isn't what he wanted to hear.  

Perhaps you would like to clarify your reference to 'trolls' while we're at it.

I think everybody has been helpful without fannying around massaging egos, the OP has been presented with the facts pure and simple, if he found the truth unpalatable so be it.

I too was puzzled by the troll remark 

Phil

[babylek]

13 hours ago, Tam & Di said:

An International Certificate of Competence (ICC) serves for sea going craft with endorsement via a test of the COLREGS and inland craft with test for knowledge of CEVNI. These are generally accepted throughout the EC countries now, but limits may be placed on their acceptance by the country you visit and e.g. Germany only accepts an inland ICC for craft to 20m. It is no longer possible to get the Commodor of your club to give you one in exchange for a G&T, but the test is simple enough anyway.

As far as I am aware all the EC countries accept an inland ICC for appropriate vessels, whatever the flag of the ship.

For small craft (a technical term in this instance, i.e. under 20m) there is not a lot of difference by way of paperwork for craft and steerer between UK and e.g. France except the steerer must have a certificate of competence. You'd still need the equivalent of a boat safety certificate, ship's VHF licence, insurance, etc, though there are some extra ship things like certification on life jackets and fire extinguishers.

This link gives detail of some of the things the OP would need to know:

http://www.bargehandling.com/Bargehandling.com/BARGE_HANDLING_BLOG/Entries/2016/11/4_Certification_for_helmsmen_of_Pleasure_Craft_onInland_Waterwaysin_Europe.html

I'm sure you are right about the problems which will arise if/when UK is no longer part of Europe and the VAT position will become expensive if it reverts to what it was in the 70s.

 

Thank you that was most helpful, I will go take a look at the link you have sent me. I am now getting an overall picture what I have to do and what to expect. This forum has also given me an insight into some of the questions I will need to ask French sellers if I choose to buy in France.

[Murflynn]

9 hours ago, Athy said:

Ah, i did not realise that.

I am not. 

 Perhaps I would not.

it might appear that you are the one who is out of touch and out of step regarding this issue.

if you are not prepared to explain yourself, whilst knocking others when they use the word 'troll', then you will also appear to be quite unreasonable.